Asiana 777 Crash at SFO
07-25-2013, 04:52 AM
#621
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by Airhoss
Or, maybe pilots should be able to do basic stuff like land an airplane under VFR conditions without stalling it. Pretty much as basic as it gets.
Technological advancements shouldn't be a replacement for human skill and ability. The continued push my manufacturers and aircraft operators to continually minimize the role of the pilot in the cockpit is beginning to catch up.
07-25-2013, 05:17 AM
#622
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by DeadHead
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^
Technological advancements shouldn't be a replacement for human skill and ability. The continued push my manufacturers and aircraft operators to continually minimize the role of the pilot in the cockpit is beginning to catch up.
Technological advancements shouldn't be a replacement for human skill and ability. The continued push my manufacturers and aircraft operators to continually minimize the role of the pilot in the cockpit is beginning to catch up.
07-25-2013, 08:22 AM
#623
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
IIRC, the number one job of a safety engineer/professional is to remove the safety issue through engineering (try to make it impossible to happen), then write procedures to avoid it and then finally to train to the handling of the emergency.
But compared to the old 707/DC-8 days the safety record has improved by huge leaps. Partly through training and partly through automation. The old timers were great stick and rudder guys, but the aircraft and ATC system at the time tended to find big holes in their SA.
Aircraft are now very close to idiot proof in many ways as is the system that supports air traffic.
07-25-2013, 09:04 AM
#624
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Agree, automation has saved far more people than it has hurt. Part of the problem is that sometimes the automation is not fully understood by the user-the airbus tree cutting ceremony being a prime example.
07-25-2013, 09:13 AM
#625
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Originally Posted by Airhoss
Agreed and a pilot still needs to be able to turn all the wizardry off and hand fly the airplane by looking outside. I'm afraid that the new/foreign model of pilot training taking a guy from zero to fully automated airliner in a year or two lacks severely in the actually flying department.
I don't think the crew lacked experience, but it does look like the PF was not very familiar with the 777 and the particulars of the AT system, and he didn't get much help from the rest of the crew.
07-25-2013, 01:04 PM
#626
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,096
Originally Posted by Timbo
Hey guess what?
777's have an AOA display, just above the pitch/roll display. It is tiny, and nobody at DL Training told us what to look for, or how to use it, but it's there.
I almost never look at it....and I have yet to stall the 777.
777's have an AOA display, just above the pitch/roll display. It is tiny, and nobody at DL Training told us what to look for, or how to use it, but it's there.
I almost never look at it....and I have yet to stall the 777.
07-25-2013, 01:13 PM
#627
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Can you explain where exactly the AOA indicators are on the 777?
Found an image of it:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta...-ER/1248765/L/
Far left in the picture, look just above the pitch/roll ball, to the right, you see that little white 3/4 circle with a white line (it's the moving needle), that says 0.0, just to the left of the top of the altitude strip? That's it. At cruise it's pointing about 3 oclock. The numbers usually say 2.6-3.3 or so. You see there is a little red index line up about 2 O'clock, that's the limit...but what it means, they've never told us!
Last edited by Timbo; 07-25-2013 at 01:48 PM.
07-25-2013, 02:03 PM
#629
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
When I first checked out on the 777, I thought, "Oh, cool, this will be great!" but in all honesty, I've never used it when flying a visual approach, or any other approach, but then, I've never tried to do any acro in the 777 either!
Yet...
I am planing an aileron roll on my Finny Flight though, while pouring iced tea with my other hand of course!
The airspeed tape tells me everything I need to know, re. Flap Speeds, min speeds, etc. That and good old seat of the pants, and eyeballs out the window. All that J3 time when I was a kid time comes in handy in a crosswind too. I loved the AOA in the T38, and that's about all we used in the pattern, but since I left UPT, have not used one, except on a Decathalon and Pitts, doing acro.
Yet...
I am planing an aileron roll on my Finny Flight though, while pouring iced tea with my other hand of course!
The airspeed tape tells me everything I need to know, re. Flap Speeds, min speeds, etc. That and good old seat of the pants, and eyeballs out the window. All that J3 time when I was a kid time comes in handy in a crosswind too. I loved the AOA in the T38, and that's about all we used in the pattern, but since I left UPT, have not used one, except on a Decathalon and Pitts, doing acro.
07-26-2013, 06:07 AM
#630
maverick
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: 69
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
PF in OE should not mean PM is "heads up" (attention out of cockpit) for the approach. IMO, no matter what kind of approach is being flown and what phase of currency the PF is, the PM needs to be monitoring everything.
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