Asiana 777 Crash at SFO
06-25-2014, 10:23 PM
#931
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 834
While this tragedy was the result of numerous breakdowns, I see four big ones. Lack of basic flying skills, insufficient familiarity with the equipment, inadequate training and various standardization issues concerning training and equipment; all, seemingly, inexorably linked. I mention this especially as similar situations have developed in General Aviation, with the advent and proliferation of TAA. I think it past time that the industry as a whole properly address this issue...
Last edited by Yoda2; 06-25-2014 at 10:46 PM. Reason: additional
06-26-2014, 04:53 AM
#933
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by TonyC
You speak of "the bus" as if there were only one model, or as if all models were the same.
Neither is true.
.
Neither is true.
.
06-26-2014, 07:36 AM
#934
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: B744 F/O
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
Assuming the F/D has been given proper inputs and the FMAs indicate the modes you expect. Blindly following the F/D is a recipe for disaster too.
Agreed, that is the intent of what I am saying. If the FD isn't giving proper info, shut it off. Don't "fly through" the FD and ignore the commands while leaving it on.
tr
06-26-2014, 07:48 AM
#935
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,292
Originally Posted by TonyC
You speak of "the bus" as if there were only one model, or as if all models were the same.
Neither is true.
.
Neither is true.
.
06-26-2014, 08:05 AM
#936
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
Submit a change to the AIM.
But you hit the nail on the head with the way most guys act these days... Blindly following the book into the side of a mountain.
06-26-2014, 08:12 AM
#937
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,201
Originally Posted by aviatorhi
Sorry, you can't read your way to good airmanship... Nice try though.
06-26-2014, 08:27 AM
#938
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,292
Originally Posted by cencal83406
We fly a forced "mixed mode" in the CRJ-200... No A/T whatsoever.
Yes, but we do it all the time and have no other option to develop bad habits re. the thrust levers.
Well if you fly the FADEC models and then jump back in the 200 you can forget to fine-tune the thrust in the climb.
06-26-2014, 08:28 AM
#939
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by cencal83406
Sounds very subjective, as in technique. Do autothrottles really cause this much consternation automation-wise? We fly a forced "mixed mode" in the CRJ-200... No A/T whatsoever.
06-26-2014, 08:57 AM
#940
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: B744 F/O
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by HattoriHonzo
You're both correct... but I think what triaketige is referring to is that in the Airbus if you're climbing or descending in a mode that sets anything other than 'SPEED' mode (ie. THR CLMB or THR IDLE) pitching out of the FD bars can/will cause an over or underspeed.
I've seen it catch people with thousands of hrs in the plane off guard & confuse them. For example, climbing out & cleared to some altitude in the teens ATC requests a level off at say 5k for traffic. Pilot sets 5000" but the AP doesn't capture the altitude in time... PF snaps off the AP & pitches down out of the bars attempting to level at 5k. The Autothrust stays in 'THR CLMB' & airspeed increases.
The inverse scenario can be even worse. Pitch up out of the FD bars while descending with Autothrust in 'THR IDLE' & the airspeed will decay towards stall with only 'AFLOOR' protection (which commands & locks thrust at TOGA) keeping the stall from actually occurring. AFLOOR is not active below 100' RA though... which is supposedly why that Air France AB ended up flying into the trees.
I've seen it catch people with thousands of hrs in the plane off guard & confuse them. For example, climbing out & cleared to some altitude in the teens ATC requests a level off at say 5k for traffic. Pilot sets 5000" but the AP doesn't capture the altitude in time... PF snaps off the AP & pitches down out of the bars attempting to level at 5k. The Autothrust stays in 'THR CLMB' & airspeed increases.
The inverse scenario can be even worse. Pitch up out of the FD bars while descending with Autothrust in 'THR IDLE' & the airspeed will decay towards stall with only 'AFLOOR' protection (which commands & locks thrust at TOGA) keeping the stall from actually occurring. AFLOOR is not active below 100' RA though... which is supposedly why that Air France AB ended up flying into the trees.
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