UPS Accident - BHM
01-27-2014, 04:51 AM
#574
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Between a rock and a hard place
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L'il J. Seinfeld,
Do you mean UPS's A300-600's have the capability to fly PROF to MDA? That was not a capability originally offered by Airbus, but one that FDX went to great lengths (and expense) to have added to the Honeywell box. I hope Big Brown followed suit because it's a great capability to have.
Do you mean UPS's A300-600's have the capability to fly PROF to MDA? That was not a capability originally offered by Airbus, but one that FDX went to great lengths (and expense) to have added to the Honeywell box. I hope Big Brown followed suit because it's a great capability to have.
01-27-2014, 06:34 AM
#575
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
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Posts: 1,126
Originally Posted by XprsFr8r
L'il J. Seinfeld,
Do you mean UPS's A300-600's have the capability to fly PROF to MDA? That was not a capability originally offered by Airbus, but one that FDX went to great lengths (and expense) to have added to the Honeywell box. I hope Big Brown followed suit because it's a great capability to have.
Do you mean UPS's A300-600's have the capability to fly PROF to MDA? That was not a capability originally offered by Airbus, but one that FDX went to great lengths (and expense) to have added to the Honeywell box. I hope Big Brown followed suit because it's a great capability to have.
We train and routinely fly GPS and glide slope out ILS approaches in profile mode to a DDA/DA. We have a briefing guide to help set it up as well as one for vertical speed approaches. It's trained very well in my opinion.
01-27-2014, 02:17 PM
#576
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 249
The question then becomes did the crew use profile mode? If not why did they use V/S, why was the descent rate in excess of 1000 fpm with the autopilot on? And procedurally if up to 1500 fpm is an acceptable descent rate set in V/S per the AOM, then this isn't a CANPA approach anymore, so why is the MCP ALT set to MA crossing FAF?
01-27-2014, 02:47 PM
#577
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
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Originally Posted by cougar
so why is the MCP ALT set to MA crossing FAF?
In an effort to be a "step ahead", a valuable error trap is removed with current procedure.
01-27-2014, 05:08 PM
#578
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: MD-11 Guru
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by J Dawg
This is one of the worst procedures at UPS IMHO. Every other place I have worked at, the MDA is set in the MCP crossing the FAF. At UPS procedure is to set the MA altitude after starting down to MDA.... you are now flying away from the selected MCP altitude. If the MDA was set, the altitude would have been captured (considering a/p was on) and this accident most likely would not have happened.
In an effort to be a "step ahead", a valuable error trap is removed with current procedure.
In an effort to be a "step ahead", a valuable error trap is removed with current procedure.
On the MD at UPS, we preselect the MDA/DA and fly towards that altitude until we are visual or reach minimums, then the MA altitude is set. This would be a simple procedure change for the other fleets.
01-27-2014, 08:56 PM
#579
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The issue isn't necessarily setting the MA altitude before arriving at the MDA. It is setting the MA altitude AND selecting an excessive descent rate.
If procedurally flying a CANPA style NPA, and selecting a constant descent rate to arrive at the published MDA precisely at the VDP, then having the MCP altitude set prior makes sense. Once at the DA/DDA, if the runway environment isn't in sight, then execute the missed approach.
The problem lies with mixing two completely different types of approach procedures. In this case, a mix of the old dive-and-drive with the constant angle/descent current advocated by the FAA AC.
To maintain a 3 degree descent angle, the V/S rarely should exceed 800-900 fpm unless a high final airspeed or a steep final descent angle.
If procedurally flying a CANPA style NPA, and selecting a constant descent rate to arrive at the published MDA precisely at the VDP, then having the MCP altitude set prior makes sense. Once at the DA/DDA, if the runway environment isn't in sight, then execute the missed approach.
The problem lies with mixing two completely different types of approach procedures. In this case, a mix of the old dive-and-drive with the constant angle/descent current advocated by the FAA AC.
To maintain a 3 degree descent angle, the V/S rarely should exceed 800-900 fpm unless a high final airspeed or a steep final descent angle.
01-28-2014, 11:52 AM
#580
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Position: A320 family
Posts: 44
At my airline ( shortly to retire the A306) for an NPA the procedure is to set Go-around altitude in the FCU whilst the FD is in ALT mode. As you approach the descent point V/S is selected and we start the descent about 0.3 nm before so that the AP has time to react. If you select MDA in the FCU you could probably descend below it if you go around and you also cannot use the AP/FD to go -around as the guidance will be in ALT( hold at MDA. We have never used Profile mode for approaches and its poor performance in the descent phase has meant that most of my colleagues have no faith in it.
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