117 Rest Debacle
12-06-2013, 08:17 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Want(ed) to be an Airline Pilot
Posts: 43
117 Rest Debacle
Looking at the soon to be implemented 117 rest rules, I shake my head at the obsurd complexity of the entire structure.
Not that the previous rules weren't fairly convoluted also, but the 117 version puts a whole new meaning to self inflicted difficulity.
Is the FAA really concerned about safety, rest, circadium cycle alignment etc?
Is 117 all just the FAA and the airlines compromising back & forth so much that this is what we're left with?
It appears that these new rules will take away much flexibility for airlines regarding trips. Since you will no longer have "good to start, good to finish" sked will have to build soft time into each days trips, lest you have planes without crews all over the map.
I've never thought flying tired was a good idea and I have not enjoyed the back side of the clock at all. The previous rest rules allowed for some rediculous schedules but the new 117 rules seem to go off in another direction.
As 117 gets utilized I'm sure some things about it will become clearly beneficial to proper rest, some things
will tie the hands of scheduling.
I really wonder why 117 got written the way it did. It seems that we as pilots will go from crazy 16hr duty followed by reduced rest to compensatiry to reduced....to something much more restrictive. Perhaps a kneejerk reaction for those involved in the making of the 117 rules.
An FAA dispatcher can work 10 hrs, a US truck driver 12. Why not simplify the pilots also.
Not that the previous rules weren't fairly convoluted also, but the 117 version puts a whole new meaning to self inflicted difficulity.
Is the FAA really concerned about safety, rest, circadium cycle alignment etc?
Is 117 all just the FAA and the airlines compromising back & forth so much that this is what we're left with?
It appears that these new rules will take away much flexibility for airlines regarding trips. Since you will no longer have "good to start, good to finish" sked will have to build soft time into each days trips, lest you have planes without crews all over the map.
I've never thought flying tired was a good idea and I have not enjoyed the back side of the clock at all. The previous rest rules allowed for some rediculous schedules but the new 117 rules seem to go off in another direction.
As 117 gets utilized I'm sure some things about it will become clearly beneficial to proper rest, some things
will tie the hands of scheduling.
I really wonder why 117 got written the way it did. It seems that we as pilots will go from crazy 16hr duty followed by reduced rest to compensatiry to reduced....to something much more restrictive. Perhaps a kneejerk reaction for those involved in the making of the 117 rules.
An FAA dispatcher can work 10 hrs, a US truck driver 12. Why not simplify the pilots also.
01-06-2014, 02:21 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Want(ed) to be an Airline Pilot
Posts: 43
ORD and E Coast wx
Let the 117 mayhem begin.
Any guess on how many cxld flights this week due to the new regs?
Any guess on how many cxld flights this week due to the new regs?
01-06-2014, 04:39 AM
#3
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Earth is a disc
Posts: 13
The very same rest rules were implemented in Europe years ago and it worked well.. Now of course Europe changes again in some Details! The Body clock idea is not new to aviation at all at is here to stay
01-06-2014, 05:03 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Delta M88 A ATL
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by BE02Driverz
Looking at the soon to be implemented 117 rest rules, I shake my head at the obsurd complexity of the entire structure.
Not that the previous rules weren't fairly convoluted also, but the 117 version puts a whole new meaning to self inflicted difficulity.
Is the FAA really concerned about safety, rest, circadium cycle alignment etc?
Is 117 all just the FAA and the airlines compromising back & forth so much that this is what we're left with?
It appears that these new rules will take away much flexibility for airlines regarding trips. Since you will no longer have "good to start, good to finish" sked will have to build soft time into each days trips, lest you have planes without crews all over the map.
I've never thought flying tired was a good idea and I have not enjoyed the back side of the clock at all. The previous rest rules allowed for some rediculous schedules but the new 117 rules seem to go off in another direction.
As 117 gets utilized I'm sure some things about it will become clearly beneficial to proper rest, some things
will tie the hands of scheduling.
I really wonder why 117 got written the way it did. It seems that we as pilots will go from crazy 16hr duty followed by reduced rest to compensatiry to reduced....to something much more restrictive. Perhaps a kneejerk reaction for those involved in the making of the 117 rules.
An FAA dispatcher can work 10 hrs, a US truck driver 12. Why not simplify the pilots also.
Not that the previous rules weren't fairly convoluted also, but the 117 version puts a whole new meaning to self inflicted difficulity.
Is the FAA really concerned about safety, rest, circadium cycle alignment etc?
Is 117 all just the FAA and the airlines compromising back & forth so much that this is what we're left with?
It appears that these new rules will take away much flexibility for airlines regarding trips. Since you will no longer have "good to start, good to finish" sked will have to build soft time into each days trips, lest you have planes without crews all over the map.
I've never thought flying tired was a good idea and I have not enjoyed the back side of the clock at all. The previous rest rules allowed for some rediculous schedules but the new 117 rules seem to go off in another direction.
As 117 gets utilized I'm sure some things about it will become clearly beneficial to proper rest, some things
will tie the hands of scheduling.
I really wonder why 117 got written the way it did. It seems that we as pilots will go from crazy 16hr duty followed by reduced rest to compensatiry to reduced....to something much more restrictive. Perhaps a kneejerk reaction for those involved in the making of the 117 rules.
An FAA dispatcher can work 10 hrs, a US truck driver 12. Why not simplify the pilots also.
Train engineers in NY 9 hours
And they are on rails!!
01-06-2014, 08:37 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Want(ed) to be an Airline Pilot
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clarification
So what if this happens...
§ 117.19 Flight duty period extensions.
(a) For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours.
(2) An extension in the flight duty period under paragraph (a)(1) of this section of more than 30 minutes may occur only once prior to receiving a rest period described in ß 117.25(b).
....if you get extended more than :30 and less than 2:00 do you then require 30 hrs rest? Is that 30 hrs required before you can even continue the next day or is the 30 hrs only if you get extended twice within a 168 hr (7day) period?
Makes me fatigued just trying to keep it all straight!
§ 117.19 Flight duty period extensions.
(a) For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours.
(2) An extension in the flight duty period under paragraph (a)(1) of this section of more than 30 minutes may occur only once prior to receiving a rest period described in ß 117.25(b).
....if you get extended more than :30 and less than 2:00 do you then require 30 hrs rest? Is that 30 hrs required before you can even continue the next day or is the 30 hrs only if you get extended twice within a 168 hr (7day) period?
Makes me fatigued just trying to keep it all straight!
01-07-2014, 06:06 AM
#6
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
[mod note]
Explosion of 117 threads going on here lately, please use one of these 3-
How is FAR 117 (the new rest rules) going?
FAR 117 rule isn't solving the real problem
The FAR 117 Effect
Explosion of 117 threads going on here lately, please use one of these 3-
How is FAR 117 (the new rest rules) going?
FAR 117 rule isn't solving the real problem
The FAR 117 Effect
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