Fluglehrer

Doc, consistency is not always a virtue.

The USAF put an AOA gauge on the T-38 to stop it from killing students and their instructors. You don't have to visualize anything, you just associate cues (buffet, stick position, KIAS, etc.) to an accurate indication of AOA instead of associating those cues to some ignorant hallucination of what you visualize AOA to be. Sure, the T-38 is a pretty extreme example, as most pilots with less than 100 hrs won't be piloting them, but in military training that's the program. Having that AOA gauge reduced the fireballs in the traffic pattern to a reasonable number in short order (here's the study: www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD0757243 )

I really don't care to visualize all that crap the AFH talks about. I think that statement is wishful thinking by someone who should know better. I'd rather have an AOA guage to KNOW my angle of attack, a g-meter to KNOW my load factor, and an airspeed indicator to KNOW my KIAS (kinetic energy). I can fly better and with less effort if I have those indicators (and if I've used them and then you take them away I probably have a more accurate feel for the plane than if I never had them in the first place).

Tell me, would you rather have test results to look at, or would you just look at the patient and VISUALIZE what's wrong with them? Would you find it naive to think a blood test could help with accurate diagnosis? I'm sure you also visualize, as do pilots, but don't professionals prefer to use the most objective indicators?

cardiomd

The vast majority of GA pilots will never step anywhere near a T38 and that type of airfoil. Yes, AOA may be useful in that type, and as we discussed it is essential in airliners up in thin air.

I think that is where the disconnect lies. The posters here are truly unfamiliar with the way that GA pilots, airfoils, and operations take place, and want to force your way of flying / thinking onto them. This is why my experiences are similar to expert GA pilots, not freight dogs or jet jocks. Unless you are pulling G's in the pattern, ASI give appropriate info and safety margin. If you are pulling G's in the patten or don't have a good feel for the airplane, then IMO you have bigger problems.

Perhaps a better analogy would be is it worth hooking a patient up to a costly and redundant instrument "just in case" when identical information is available via other means? Just in case the surgeon is reckless and decides to hot dog during the case instead of remaining with good margins of safety, as he has done countless times without a single incident?

I'd say judge by the scoreboard, not naiive idealism. I don't fly my 182 anywhere near the edges of the envelope (without intentionally doing so), and an AOA gauge would not help my type of flying. After the initial fun factor I'd rarely even look at it.

If you need one in your GA plane, go ahead and install one! I never stop anybody from improving their own safety, but don't legislate for others. My "position" remains unchanged!

NotPart91

Your right Doc.

I just re-read by Birth Certificate and at the top is;

Record of Live Birth Child/Pilot
https://youtu.be/MjoMQJf5vKI

METO Guido

Perfect.
Cardio…HR721: Managed Health Care Record Keeping Reduction Act; C-182 Angle of Attack Indicator Retrofit Exemption. Papa Mike me your contribution info and I’ll make sure it gets into the right hands.

Fluglehrer

Doc, that's an erroneous assumption: just because you aren't familiar with military aviation doesn't mean the posters here aren't familiar with GA.
Maybe an AOA gauge wouldn't have been a "costly and redundant instrument" for this Mooney pilot at a critical instance:
I'm sure he should have been better at visualizing the rapidly changing AOA as his thrust suddenly decreased to a negative value and increased AOA, his AOA increased due to bank and increased back pressure, and of course we can flog him for attempting to turn back in the first place. I'm sure his experiences weren't similar to yours or other GA experts, so he's the guy who actually might benefit from using this gauge in the pattern, especially during an emergency. Here's the rest of the story:
The "Impossible Turn" and Three Mooney Crashes in Two Weeks : Aviation Law Monitor

F15Cricket

The first part of your statement that I quoted is pure presumption (sprinkled with what comes across as some arrogance, as well). Many, many folks on here also fly GA. Me, for one, who you've dismissed in the past. I've flown (and still fly) GA, airliners, and military fighters. With that broad experience, one would hope you would listen to those who are vastly more experienced than yourself.

The second part of your statement that I quoted shows an ignorance of the safety statistics. What's the number one cause of GA accidents? Isn't it loss of control? And how often do airliners fly anywhere near the edge of the envelope? And yet, many airliners have AOA!

So, addition of AOA (according to the FAA, NTSB, AOPA, and pretty much everyone who knows about aeronautics, pilots and flying) will decrease GA accidents--not solve all loss of control incidents, but they will definitely decrease. Maybe not for some certain pilots, however ...

cardiomd

You don't think his stall horn was blaring? You actually think that somehow another instrument other than the low ASI, telling him the same thing while he yanks back on the yoke, would have made the difference?

I'm serious - I just don't think somebody who is going to act like this, (yes, he was startled, but that is why you mentally rehearse these things always) is going to benefit from another gauge telling him what he should already know. That's why Chuck Yeager, Dick Collins, and I feel this way. Perhaps envelope protection system may have helped, but those are still pretty rare in GA fleet. Training? Experience? Yes, both would likely help.

cardiomd

Unclear, and likely not true. We'll see the result, and I would be very interested in the data. I'll even happily admit I'm wrong if there is a clear trend, but I'd wager more than a few beers that I'm not wrong.

So, a freight pilot was arguing here that remembered "very little" about GA. The posts here reflect a very deep ignorance of the styles of GA flying and airfoils.

What do you fly in GA, F15? If you want to play that game, I'll bet I currently fly more GA hours than you if you still fly mil (would be very difficult for any reasonably active pro pilot to fly more than me and still have appropriate rest hours.)

I fly a circuit for business that keeps me in the air a great deal for the next few years. I carefully plan, I go commercial when thunderstorms or icing prohibit me, and I feel very current and confident in my abilities. Arrogance? Nope. Confidence? You betcha.

But, this is not the important metric, it is knowledge, which many of the posts here are severely lacking. We had some guy arguing that GA pilots are "closer to the edge of the envelope" than transport jets. Yet, while arguing nonsense, he somehow knows more about aerodynamics than an MIT-trained engineer who studied fluid mechanics and aerodynamics. Flying is hard for a lot of people, and they can and should feel proud of their accomplishments, but there is a whole other world out there. Posters need to pick up a book instead of thumping their chest.

But hey, it's the internet.

Maybe you can install some $4000 aftermarket AOA gauge on the GA planes you fly to keep yourself safe. Again, I'm not going to argue for people who may need this, and if it makes you feel you are a safer pilot, by all means do it. Best of luck to you!

cardiomd

Flugleher, don't forget this classic example which was used for FAA FAAST demos, if you haven't seen it already (jump to the end for the crash):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzDSq6m2zV4

High density altitude contributing. The high AOA audio alert indicator did its job. Abusive control inputs, and the plane did what physics dictated.

Fluglehrer

Appears he was reducing back pressure at the stall warning and then immediately (and excessively) increasing it, or possibly he never reduced back pressure and the plane was just oscillating in the stall. Either way I'm not sure this supports your position. Training with an AOA indicator may have helped him understand how to max perform his aircraft without exceeding the critical angle, and may even have helped him predict the limits of what he could do with his flightpath so he could choose an earlier/better alternative path. The stall warning is just an on/off indicator, while the AOA gauge can give a progressive indication of AOA. This pilot's decision to continue up the mountain severely limited his options and put him in a square corner. If any gauge could have helped him at the end game, it would have been an AOA.