Not understanding AoA indicators...
#171
I don't know guys - I think he was simply referring to the times we're in the "corner" of the envelope, typically at high altitude cruise. Personally, I like having accurately derived flight envelope information on my instruments rather than going into paper charts like we used to have to do.
You've never had to climb a few thousand feet above optimum or get close to max when you're still a little too heavy so you can get the altitude you need for a crossing? Not that we're talking test pilot stuff or life and death - I just know there have been a few times that I've been stuck with maybe a 20 knot spread between stall and MMO.
I don't have a lot of light airplane time, but I don't remember that same thing being an issue.
You've never had to climb a few thousand feet above optimum or get close to max when you're still a little too heavy so you can get the altitude you need for a crossing? Not that we're talking test pilot stuff or life and death - I just know there have been a few times that I've been stuck with maybe a 20 knot spread between stall and MMO.
I don't have a lot of light airplane time, but I don't remember that same thing being an issue.
I honestly can't believe some of the other responses. Sadly comical in ignorance and arrogance.
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
So doc if I google stalls per 1000 take offs which one is more likely to pop up, the doctor or the airline. I seriously don't know, I am sure you can tell me. Let's use fatalities in our search because I'm sure not a lot of doctors self report.
#173
Thanks, Adler, you are absolutely correct. You have a very good understanding on how close to Q corner a transport airliner can go (and routinely does go), and don't just let the computer do the work for you.
I honestly can't believe some of the other responses. Sadly comical in ignorance and arrogance.
I honestly can't believe some of the other responses. Sadly comical in ignorance and arrogance.
As has been pointed out often by so many others, you just like to ARGUE (not discuss) issues. Lecturing, slinging text book passages, and internet links does not cut it. The rest of the folks here usually back up their DISCUSSIONS with knowledge and skills gained from their PROFESSIONAL civilian and military flying careers. Stick to backing up your (try discussions instead of arguing) with more consistent real world flight experiences that YOU encounter and you may find some true street cred someday here. Otherwise, keep on arguing and lecturing so you can see yourself in print if that is what keeps ya going.
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 924
LOL! You are such a HOOT!
As has been pointed out often by so many others, you just like to ARGUE (not discuss) issues. Lecturing, slinging text book passages, and internet links does not cut it. The rest of the folks here usually back up their DISCUSSIONS with knowledge and skills gained from their PROFESSIONAL civilian and military flying careers. Stick to backing up your (try discussions instead of arguing) with more consistent real world flight experiences that YOU encounter and you may find some true street cred someday here. Otherwise, keep on arguing and lecturing so you can see yourself in print if that is what keeps ya going.
As has been pointed out often by so many others, you just like to ARGUE (not discuss) issues. Lecturing, slinging text book passages, and internet links does not cut it. The rest of the folks here usually back up their DISCUSSIONS with knowledge and skills gained from their PROFESSIONAL civilian and military flying careers. Stick to backing up your (try discussions instead of arguing) with more consistent real world flight experiences that YOU encounter and you may find some true street cred someday here. Otherwise, keep on arguing and lecturing so you can see yourself in print if that is what keeps ya going.
On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.
#175
For the record, my school is based at one of the top 5 busiest airports in Ohio. I've seen plenty of unprofessional bizjet pilots and also plenty of professional GA pilots. Having flown a particular type of aircraft shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having a discussion about aerodynamics.
On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.
On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.
If you do not care to use AoA, your choice. However, to try and brow-beat others that DO understand and DO USE the AoA guage, is a crusade that some have picked as their fetish/go-to rant, just makes you wonder, really?
#176
With all due respect, then why are you arguing in such a maniacal fashion with somebody who has a good deal of current experience in them? Flying freight does not an expert in aerodynamics make, as your posts prove. I don't argue with you about nuances of flying the 767 or about things I'm not familiar with.
Your posts come across as a series of non-sequiturs. First it "who is closer to the edge of the envelope," now it is stalls per 1000 takeoffs data?
As a simple logical thought process for you, regulations aside, could you make a typical flight in your 767 without an AOA or pitot probe? I hope not. However, a light aircraft easily could. During my training we would often cover the ASI, fly pitch and power, or estimate speeds by control feel. We still have the emergency AOA indicator, AKA stall horn. It is good training and I'd advise all light plane pilots to do this.
As a simple logical thought process for you, regulations aside, could you make a typical flight in your 767 without an AOA or pitot probe? I hope not. However, a light aircraft easily could. During my training we would often cover the ASI, fly pitch and power, or estimate speeds by control feel. We still have the emergency AOA indicator, AKA stall horn. It is good training and I'd advise all light plane pilots to do this.
#177
For the record, my school is based at one of the top 5 busiest airports in Ohio. I've seen plenty of unprofessional bizjet pilots and also plenty of professional GA pilots. Having flown a particular type of aircraft shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having a discussion about aerodynamics.
On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.
On AoA, my university and the FAA recently conducted a study using flight path data to compare the performance of GA pilots during takeoff, landing, and stalls with or without an AoA. The data is still being compiled. I didn't participate, but from the pilots who did I haven't heard any "man, I miss that AoA in my regular flying" kind of talk.
Interesting, I read about a study ongoing with the UND flight school, is it the same FAA study?
I predict you will be right. At low G loads and in nonaccelerated flight, we already have a perfectly accurate AOA gauge , and I can't imagine that holding the speeds vs AOA would make a big delta for any of the standard maneuvers.
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,465
A few of the usual suspects feel threatened, just ignore them. I wonder how they ever got through school with the fancy-talkin' professor of aerodynamics tryin' to teach stuff that probably never flown but 2,000 hours in his life, but I think I know the answer.
Interesting, I read about a study ongoing with the UND flight school, is it the same FAA study?
I predict you will be right. At low G loads and in nonaccelerated flight, we already have a perfectly accurate AOA gauge , and I can't imagine that holding the speeds vs AOA would make a big delta for any of the standard maneuvers.
Interesting, I read about a study ongoing with the UND flight school, is it the same FAA study?
I predict you will be right. At low G loads and in nonaccelerated flight, we already have a perfectly accurate AOA gauge , and I can't imagine that holding the speeds vs AOA would make a big delta for any of the standard maneuvers.
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05-08-2006 07:48 AM