Domicile and bid status only. So if you're a DFW 80 FO and someone Jr to you on the 80 snags an upgrade, your "clock" starts ticking, deferrable for up to 3 yrs these days.

It is one of the main reasons CA upgrade is so long here at AA - because everyone has to upgrade. Whereas at other airlines, FOs can choose not to for QOL and so CA goes junior (CAL, for ex.)

Right now, junior MD80 CA in NYC is a May '92 hire... junior MIA 767 Int'l CA is a Feb '91 hire... so things are starting to go really junior here, LOL.

73

I understand that some pilots have few experiences in aviation before reaching the multi-crew environment and as such probably have a different opinion of the position. As a young person who's first real flying job is as an FO I am sure that they are able to feel some kind of respect for the position since they don't know anything else.

At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion. The FO does not sign any legal documents in relation to the flight. The FO does not give Captain evaluations and are rarely held liable when something goes wrong. They are hardly even there and can be found mostly as a silent and nearly invisible shadow to the captain.


SkyHigh

Passengers can tell through body language and by the reactions of the crew who is the boss. That is why they feel compelled to ask the idle one who stares at the floor if "they are the pilot"?

I suppose that sometimes they could see the captain in that same mood as well.

SkyHigh

Tim,
I had to read all the way through the thread to see if someone else had responded, I'm glad I did cause you hit the nail on the head!

Any Capt who takes his FO for granted is asking for trouble. As a Capt it is your opportunity to mentor your FO, and show them exactly how CRM is supposed to work. Most FO's work their tails off and the good Captains are the ones who not only acknowlegde it, but give back when possible. With all the pipelines to the majors, you never know the background and experience your Capt or FO is brining to the table.

Skyhigh,
If you're feeling "invisible" right now or when you were a FO, I hope you remember that when you're flying in left seat so you don't treat your FOs the way you hated being treated. Regardless, good luck to you!

You are right. The FO position is not always low stress. Often they are held captive to abusive individuals who like to use the crew as punching bags. In addition FO's are occasionally pared arrogant old timers who are loosing perspective and think that they do not have to follow the rules. As a new FO you are nearly powerless to save yourself.

If a captain makes an off color remark to a FA they risk harsh punishment. How is the "new guy" First Officer suppose to march into the chief pilots office with complaints about rouge long time captains? What system is there in place for the FO to raise questions about their superiors without facing retaliation or consequences? The FO is told that they are to speak up but really no one cares. They have no power and no input on anything.

The overbearing undertone from airline culture is for First Officers to sit there quietly look cute and competent but don't touch anything.


SkyHigh

I spent my time as an FO and I will never forget it. As am employer now I don't take anyone for granted and always try to show respect for everyone.

SkyHigh

Usually the most nasty captains never spent much time as an FO. Either they were lucky and advanced quickly or they would search the world over and would only take jobs as street captains no matter how badly it hurt the rest of their lives because they couldn't be nasty as an FO.

SkyHigh

SkyHigh,

It is apparent that you had "personality" differences with your captains while you were an FO. You should have taken those to the Chief Pilot if you believed those differences to endanger safety. If any captain was "abusing" you or the crew, then you had a responsibility to speak up. If a CP does not take you seriously, there is your union and professional standards department. Your opinion of FOs being worthless and ignored is incorrect and ill informed. Your posts illustrate your bitterness toward the profession. A profession you chose, took your shot, felt it was not what you expected and moved on. It is a good thing you are not involved in airline flying any more because you do not understand the concept of crew and its importance to safety. You see a mentor and apprentice relationship. While captains mentor FOs and give them tips and instruction on how the operation is run, they also need the FOs input and involvement in the operation.

I tell every future pilot I meet that the lifestyle is tough, the industry is unstable, and it is hard on your relationships. I also tell them of the benefits of the job. This job is not for everybody. It is for a select few who understand what is required. That is not elitist or arrogant. Why? Because what is required is some personal sacrifices and a lot on perseverance. PERSEVERANCE is the common attribute of airline pilots. The industry is not made up of the BEST pilots, just those who persevered and did not give up.

Sky, just because you did not fit in this industry does not mean it is evil or ruined your life. Your choices determine your life success. The industry is what it is, but if the FO is irrelevant, why is the airplane type certificated for TWO pilots? I guess they thought every airline would fly two captains on every flight, huh?

I've been an F/O for 21 years here at USAir. I can hold a line on the E-190 but why would I do that when it means taking an $18/hr paycut? Not that I don't want to be a Capt (been there done that got the ASA uniform to prove it) but at this point this is strictly about QOL and $$$ what little there is Also BTW I believe that everyone at USAirways is now type rated on their equipment reguardless of seat. So both of us or all three are valued in the cockpit. I've even had C/O's tell me time and again that they feel that we are both Capt's. We DO have a very good bunch of guys here.

Either you are trying to get everyone lit up or you really just don't get it.