Getting bumped back from Captain
05-02-2008, 08:37 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
Tony,
I think 99% of the FO's here (which would be 99% of the membership because we've all been there) have had the same experience.
I've only been doing this for about a year. I've flown with probably 100 captains and there has only been one that was so disenchanted and in general, dangerous that needed to quit. If I were still with that company I'd simply avoid flying with him. Even he gave me a lesson to learn. He simply reminded me of the things I shouldn't do one day as captain. If sky were still flying he'd probably be that type of captain. He was so busy chasing the fast/easy upgrade that he sat in the right seat and lost his job numerous times. I'd be disenchanted too.
Aside from that one captain I've never been afraid (I wasn't afraid with this guy, I just didn't want to talk to him) to ask a question, or felt uncomfortable. I've enjoyed learning from each one and try to take the best from each one to mold how I do things.
I think 99% of the FO's here (which would be 99% of the membership because we've all been there) have had the same experience.
I've only been doing this for about a year. I've flown with probably 100 captains and there has only been one that was so disenchanted and in general, dangerous that needed to quit. If I were still with that company I'd simply avoid flying with him. Even he gave me a lesson to learn. He simply reminded me of the things I shouldn't do one day as captain. If sky were still flying he'd probably be that type of captain. He was so busy chasing the fast/easy upgrade that he sat in the right seat and lost his job numerous times. I'd be disenchanted too.
Aside from that one captain I've never been afraid (I wasn't afraid with this guy, I just didn't want to talk to him) to ask a question, or felt uncomfortable. I've enjoyed learning from each one and try to take the best from each one to mold how I do things.
05-02-2008, 04:49 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Originally Posted by 7576FO
I can understand getting bumped from the left seat losing pay and status. But to say that you are going back to invisible insults me.
What say you?
7576
What say you?
7576
What say me ?
I actually agree with you in the spirit of your post. Before UPS I was a Capt for three years on both the 757/747. Now as a lowly junior F/O UPS, I still try to maintain a professional level similar to that of a Capt, with the diplomacy of a humble F/O. I always ask the Capt, "Hey, you gonna eat that" before I grab the dessert off his crew meal, and other subtlties like that.
The guy/girl sitting in the left seat is not necessarily there because of their experience, but because they are senior to you and have earned that spot based on proven experience with that company. Hopefully in your friend's case, he can take his experience and augment his crew's experience to ensure each flight is operated safely and on-time in an efficient manner.
Now you want to talk about insulting, imagine being an MD80 Capt one day and furloughed the next. I'll leave that Grizzly Bear to sleep. But in these days in times, I'm glad to hear your is just getting bounced back, not bounced out.
FF
05-02-2008, 08:37 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 330 FO
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Let's not forget the number one reason that First Officers are invisible !!
The only thing that matters is reaching the left seat. Until then you might as well be invisible.
SkyHigh
The only thing that matters is reaching the left seat. Until then you might as well be invisible.
SkyHigh
In your world,
When the Captain is in the back having his 3 hour nap, and we have to shut down #2 over the middle of the Atlantic because the oil pressure dropped to nothing, what should me and the other invisible guy do?
05-03-2008, 03:44 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,045
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Let's not forget the number one reason that First Officers are invisible !!
Their flight time is valued at next to nothing in regards to getting a job with most major airlines. Turbine PIC is the bottom line. FO time nearly worthless.
Oh yea, and FO's are paid 60 to 70% of what captains make. Yet another example of their value to the industry.
The only thing that matters is reaching the left seat. Until then you might as well be invisible.
SkyHigh
Their flight time is valued at next to nothing in regards to getting a job with most major airlines. Turbine PIC is the bottom line. FO time nearly worthless.
Oh yea, and FO's are paid 60 to 70% of what captains make. Yet another example of their value to the industry.
The only thing that matters is reaching the left seat. Until then you might as well be invisible.
SkyHigh
I have over 7000TT of which 2500 is jet PIC. I'm an FO.
There are many F.O's like me at the Majors with even more TT or PIC time.
I find the Captains I fly with to be very respectful of FO's in general. They are aware that all the FO's have considerable education and left/right seat experience.
I notice you're an employer. Do you consider your employees invisible?
When you state that "Management does not want your input", does that apply to your employees as well?
Just curious, were you the subject of mistreatment, or perceived mistreatment, by a former employer or Captain?
AL
Last edited by alvrb211; 05-03-2008 at 07:32 AM.
05-03-2008, 04:49 AM
#55
Retired
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
You are right. The FO position is not always low stress. Often they are held captive to abusive individuals who like to use the crew as punching bags. In addition FO's are occasionally pared arrogant old timers who are loosing perspective and think that they do not have to follow the rules. As a new FO you are nearly powerless to save yourself.
If a captain makes an off color remark to a FA they risk harsh punishment. How is the "new guy" First Officer suppose to march into the chief pilots office with complaints about rouge long time captains? What system is there in place for the FO to raise questions about their superiors without facing retaliation or consequences? The FO is told that they are to speak up but really no one cares. They have no power and no input on anything.
The overbearing undertone from airline culture is for First Officers to sit there quietly look cute and competent but don't touch anything.
SkyHigh
If a captain makes an off color remark to a FA they risk harsh punishment. How is the "new guy" First Officer suppose to march into the chief pilots office with complaints about rouge long time captains? What system is there in place for the FO to raise questions about their superiors without facing retaliation or consequences? The FO is told that they are to speak up but really no one cares. They have no power and no input on anything.
The overbearing undertone from airline culture is for First Officers to sit there quietly look cute and competent but don't touch anything.
SkyHigh
And sure there are Cpt Queegs but that number is so finite and I have only had to deal with this type on 4 occasions in 20 years so thats pretty good .
As far as input we are encouraged to do so and the power is the Cpt,s he is after all ultimately responsible for the a/c.
You can teach monkeys to fly!
05-03-2008, 08:51 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: A320 starboard... Arrrr
Posts: 520
In our contract, we have a policy that if you have 9 years of senioirty and can hold CA in base, you have to upgrade. BUT, this part of the contract is not enforced! We have numerous guys/gals who can hold CA and have not been forced to UG. Granted, a few of them are grandfathered in because of a variety of reasons, but majority of them are not. The company/union are simply choosing to not enforce it. This is a great example of Junior guys getting walked over. Many of you may say "Oh, but you will upgrade sooner!" This is not necessarily true, here is why:
Lets say I am based in ABC as an FO. There are 25 FOs, me being 20 our of the 25, and the top 5 should have been forced to UG. Well, that means that I have to bid 5 extra lines that contractually, I shouldn't have to bid. Quality of Life sacrificed. CA seats open up at ABC and FOs from DEF base bid the upgrade at ABC and are awarded it. So I am still number 20 out of 25 on the FO list, keeping me on reserve. Years go by, the 5 senior guys still havent been forced to UG and I get close to the UG, and then the senior guys decide to take the UG.
This is actually what is going on right now at the airline that I am at. Personally, I dont really agree that anyone should be forced to upgrade, but, it is in the contract and therefore should either be followed, or removed from the contract. However, the precedence has been set.
Lets say I am based in ABC as an FO. There are 25 FOs, me being 20 our of the 25, and the top 5 should have been forced to UG. Well, that means that I have to bid 5 extra lines that contractually, I shouldn't have to bid. Quality of Life sacrificed. CA seats open up at ABC and FOs from DEF base bid the upgrade at ABC and are awarded it. So I am still number 20 out of 25 on the FO list, keeping me on reserve. Years go by, the 5 senior guys still havent been forced to UG and I get close to the UG, and then the senior guys decide to take the UG.
This is actually what is going on right now at the airline that I am at. Personally, I dont really agree that anyone should be forced to upgrade, but, it is in the contract and therefore should either be followed, or removed from the contract. However, the precedence has been set.
05-03-2008, 05:38 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 973
Originally Posted by Jay5150
Just curious:
In your world,
When the Captain is in the back having his 3 hour nap, and we have to shut down #2 over the middle of the Atlantic because the oil pressure dropped to nothing, what should me and the other invisible guy do?
In your world,
When the Captain is in the back having his 3 hour nap, and we have to shut down #2 over the middle of the Atlantic because the oil pressure dropped to nothing, what should me and the other invisible guy do?
Ummm...one of you had better wake up the captain
05-03-2008, 11:30 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 330 FO
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by reddog25
Ummm...one of you had better wake up the captain
I was of course referring to what SkyHigh might suggest that we F/O's should do in the interum until he gets up there. Since we have no input, are useless and are basically human autopilots, according to him.
05-04-2008, 02:43 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
Originally Posted by Jay5150
No kiddin' Sherlock.
I was of course referring to what SkyHigh might suggest that we F/O's should do in the interum until he gets up there. Since we have no input, are useless and are basically human autopilots, according to him.
I was of course referring to what SkyHigh might suggest that we F/O's should do in the interum until he gets up there. Since we have no input, are useless and are basically human autopilots, according to him.
05-04-2008, 03:00 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
Posts: 2,100
Originally Posted by Jay5150
No kiddin' Sherlock.
I was of course referring to what SkyHigh might suggest that we F/O's should do in the interum until he gets up there. Since we have no input, are useless and are basically human autopilots, according to him.
I was of course referring to what SkyHigh might suggest that we F/O's should do in the interum until he gets up there. Since we have no input, are useless and are basically human autopilots, according to him.
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