Getting bumped back from Captain
05-04-2008, 06:33 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I spent time as an FO at four different companies as I moved up the ladder. I was a diligent, alert and hard working First Officer. At one company as a reward for being such a "good FO" by being intentionally pared with the worst captains. Once I reached the airlines I was usually on reserve for a year or two. As a pilot on reserve you are given the trips that everyone else dropped or bid around. Usually it meant flying with the worst of the worst in regards to captains and I was forced to do that trip after trip and year after year. Most of my crew experience was in dealing with the biggest AH's in the industry.
Eventually out of boredom and a desire not to walk off the job I made my position into a research laboratory of what made these Gems tick. I would spend the month listening to their stories, asking questions and putting together the pieces of why these guys were so nasty and what choices they made to get where they were in life. I was like a camillion and would strive to contort my training and personality into whatever they needed or wanted to see in the flight deck. In my experience I was at least 20 to 30 years apart from my captain in age. We had little in common and could not relate to each other very well.
In time even the most difficult captains began to appreciate me and started to request me by name if they could. I went to work with a smile on my face and was very nice but I was not happy in that thankless role. It takes a lot of personal energy to set aside your ego and personal beliefs in order to satisfy a self centered bully. Often these guys have been abandoned by their wife, children and friends. The First Officer is usually the only person that they have in their life who is forced to interact with them by the title of our position and in the interest of preserving CRM. Sometimes I think old crusty captains hold on to their job since all they have left in life is a dog at home who is waiting for his first opportunity to run away. If they did not hace a crew that was duty bound to deal with them then they would have no one else to talk (scream) at.
On the day my airline shutdown it was difficult to be very sad since all I could think about was that I would not have to fly with the next guy I was scheduled to that month. He was another prized individual. Being an FO is a difficult, invisible and thankless job. Usually we all reach the position with significant experience and education behind us. It is humiliating to be treated like a child again. Only aviation has such a tradition.
SkyHigh
Eventually out of boredom and a desire not to walk off the job I made my position into a research laboratory of what made these Gems tick. I would spend the month listening to their stories, asking questions and putting together the pieces of why these guys were so nasty and what choices they made to get where they were in life. I was like a camillion and would strive to contort my training and personality into whatever they needed or wanted to see in the flight deck. In my experience I was at least 20 to 30 years apart from my captain in age. We had little in common and could not relate to each other very well.
In time even the most difficult captains began to appreciate me and started to request me by name if they could. I went to work with a smile on my face and was very nice but I was not happy in that thankless role. It takes a lot of personal energy to set aside your ego and personal beliefs in order to satisfy a self centered bully. Often these guys have been abandoned by their wife, children and friends. The First Officer is usually the only person that they have in their life who is forced to interact with them by the title of our position and in the interest of preserving CRM. Sometimes I think old crusty captains hold on to their job since all they have left in life is a dog at home who is waiting for his first opportunity to run away. If they did not hace a crew that was duty bound to deal with them then they would have no one else to talk (scream) at.
On the day my airline shutdown it was difficult to be very sad since all I could think about was that I would not have to fly with the next guy I was scheduled to that month. He was another prized individual. Being an FO is a difficult, invisible and thankless job. Usually we all reach the position with significant experience and education behind us. It is humiliating to be treated like a child again. Only aviation has such a tradition.
SkyHigh
You bring some valid points forward with your post. I think we've all flown with the occasional PIA captain that you seem to have spent so much time aloft with.
My question to you however is this.
You bag on the industry and the job itself very frequently. You tell us how you've risen above it all and are now self employed and so much happier than you were as a struggling, hard working, never home, flying with maniac captains, underpaid, professional pilot.
Why do you keep posting here? If you've truly moved on and are happy with your current lifestyle why is it so important to you to make disparaging post after post about the industry and pilots in general?
To me you come across as a person who is either extremely envious because he's never really accomplished the things he claims. Your vague allusions to your past career supports this scenario.
The other possibility in my mind is that you live with your scared inner child who failed at the career of his dreams and now have a demon that needs slaying.
I am not trying to bag on you or insult you sir. I am just curious as to why this stuff is so emotionally important to you. If you've truly moved on you wouldn't have the compulsive need to post about the horrible conditions of the industry and the people who are "stupid" enough to work here.
A coherent non insulting answer would be really nice and big start towards your healing process.
05-04-2008, 03:24 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 CA MIA
Posts: 1,042
Originally Posted by FliFast
What say me ?
I actually agree with you in the spirit of your post. Before UPS I was a Capt for three years on both the 757/747. Now as a lowly junior F/O UPS, I still try to maintain a professional level similar to that of a Capt, with the diplomacy of a humble F/O. I always ask the Capt, "Hey, you gonna eat that" before I grab the dessert off his crew meal, and other subtlties like that.
The guy/girl sitting in the left seat is not necessarily there because of their experience, but because they are senior to you and have earned that spot based on proven experience with that company. Hopefully in your friend's case, he can take his experience and augment his crew's experience to ensure each flight is operated safely and on-time in an efficient manner.
Now you want to talk about insulting, imagine being an MD80 Capt one day and furloughed the next. I'll leave that Grizzly Bear to sleep. But in these days in times, I'm glad to hear your is just getting bounced back, not bounced out.
FF
I actually agree with you in the spirit of your post. Before UPS I was a Capt for three years on both the 757/747. Now as a lowly junior F/O UPS, I still try to maintain a professional level similar to that of a Capt, with the diplomacy of a humble F/O. I always ask the Capt, "Hey, you gonna eat that" before I grab the dessert off his crew meal, and other subtlties like that.
The guy/girl sitting in the left seat is not necessarily there because of their experience, but because they are senior to you and have earned that spot based on proven experience with that company. Hopefully in your friend's case, he can take his experience and augment his crew's experience to ensure each flight is operated safely and on-time in an efficient manner.
Now you want to talk about insulting, imagine being an MD80 Capt one day and furloughed the next. I'll leave that Grizzly Bear to sleep. But in these days in times, I'm glad to hear your is just getting bounced back, not bounced out.
FF
But to be correct those TWA CA's that were furloughed directly to the street were in fact, withheld from being displaced to the FO seat.
I'm not sure if that is/was favorable. An individual determination.
Furloughs are/were done by seniority at AA.
Along with former TWA pilots many native AA pilots were furloughed.
Also, I understand the CA"s that were furloughed, were Captains out of seniority.
Not that there is nothing/anything wrong with that. A QOL choice.
And they will return to AA as Captains.
Line pilots do not decide seniority in mergers.
Don't forget to take your grizzly to ALPA first, then ICahn, then Don Carty, then APA.
Why do you refer to yourself as a lowly FO at UPS?
You might be trying sarcasm there, but i'm not sure.
Or you truly do not get the message of this thread.
7576
05-04-2008, 03:44 PM
#63
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: CL-65 FO
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I understand that some pilots have few experiences in aviation before reaching the multi-crew environment and as such probably have a different opinion of the position. As a young person who's first real flying job is as an FO I am sure that they are able to feel some kind of respect for the position since they don't know anything else.
At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion. The FO does not sign any legal documents in relation to the flight. The FO does not give Captain evaluations and are rarely held liable when something goes wrong. They are hardly even there and can be found mostly as a silent and nearly invisible shadow to the captain.
SkyHigh
At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion. The FO does not sign any legal documents in relation to the flight. The FO does not give Captain evaluations and are rarely held liable when something goes wrong. They are hardly even there and can be found mostly as a silent and nearly invisible shadow to the captain.
SkyHigh
I think my captain valued my opinion two weeks ago when I stopped him from turning down the wrong taxiway in LGA. I guess I should have just stayed silent and observed how to get written up since that's all I really do but I thought I would be a rebel and give the captain a little advice from the human autopilot. Back to being silent....
05-04-2008, 06:28 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
What really pains me about APC is that it gives someone like Skyhigh a venue to say things at a professional pilot forum like:
"At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion"
Then he tells me in a PM he really believes everything he says here. Then the site leaderships says "it's okay cause it's just his opinion". Then I go back to his quote and just I wanna puke.
Free speech has no limits....
"At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion"
Then he tells me in a PM he really believes everything he says here. Then the site leaderships says "it's okay cause it's just his opinion". Then I go back to his quote and just I wanna puke.
Free speech has no limits....
05-04-2008, 06:45 PM
#65
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: After 900 years of Hub-turning, look as good, you will not.
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by de727ups
What really pains me about APC....
Kid does Yoda.
05-04-2008, 07:27 PM
#66
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Originally Posted by 7576FO
While having cocktails with a good friend of mine last night. He mentioned that if his airline parked some 737's he'd get bumped back to co-pilot. He went on to complain and complain and then he said "i'll be invisible again"
I can understand getting bumped from the left seat losing pay and status. But to say that you are going back to invisible insults me.
What say you?
7576
I can understand getting bumped from the left seat losing pay and status. But to say that you are going back to invisible insults me.
What say you?
7576
05-04-2008, 07:28 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by de727ups
Then he tells me in a PM he really believes everything he says here. Then the site leaderships says "it's okay cause it's just his opinion". Then I go back to his quote and just I wanna puke.
Free speech has no limits....
05-04-2008, 08:30 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Perspective
Capt Ivan the Terrible was once a lowly F/O under Capt Ming the Merciless, who used to work for Capt Hagar the Horrible, etc. etc.... So what happened? Did they each become what they swore they would not become? Perhaps a weird effect of altitude....or maybe attitude. 
05-04-2008, 09:00 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: dogstyle
Posts: 375
Skyhigh is that crabby old man down the street that even when its sunny, 80 degrees, zero humidity and not even a cloud in the sky he'll moan about how much the weather sucks that day. He may be entitled to his opinions on here but they are worthless, annoying and devoid of anything worth reading. My guess is he ended up on many "no fly" lists and being "that guy" certainly made his pilot life miserable. I'm sure there are plenty of planes parked in the desert that if you look in all the usual hiding places in the cockpit it has some pretty unsavory statements about Mr. Skyhigh.
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