Getting bumped back from Captain
05-01-2008, 07:15 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,890
Originally Posted by Led Zep
Is the up or out with regards to your overall system-wide seniority, or is it just applicable to your particular domicile? In other words, if you are an FO in DFW and can hold captain in ORD, do you have to take the upgrade in ORD and change domiciles?
It is one of the main reasons CA upgrade is so long here at AA - because everyone has to upgrade. Whereas at other airlines, FOs can choose not to for QOL and so CA goes junior (CAL, for ex.)
Right now, junior MD80 CA in NYC is a May '92 hire... junior MIA 767 Int'l CA is a Feb '91 hire... so things are starting to go really junior here, LOL.
73
05-01-2008, 07:15 AM
#22
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
First Officer
I understand that some pilots have few experiences in aviation before reaching the multi-crew environment and as such probably have a different opinion of the position. As a young person who's first real flying job is as an FO I am sure that they are able to feel some kind of respect for the position since they don't know anything else.
At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion. The FO does not sign any legal documents in relation to the flight. The FO does not give Captain evaluations and are rarely held liable when something goes wrong. They are hardly even there and can be found mostly as a silent and nearly invisible shadow to the captain.
SkyHigh
At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion. The FO does not sign any legal documents in relation to the flight. The FO does not give Captain evaluations and are rarely held liable when something goes wrong. They are hardly even there and can be found mostly as a silent and nearly invisible shadow to the captain.
SkyHigh
05-01-2008, 07:19 AM
#23
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Pax
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
Passengers don't konw the gate their plane is leaving out of even though it's RIGHT on their boarding pass. Do YOU really think when they look at a pilot they know the difference between 3 stripes and 4?
When I based in LGA you how many times when waiting for the employee shuttle to the parking lot we would get mistaken for skycaps?
Some guido shows up, drops his luggage; "Doze bags arh goin' ta lawderdale!"
When I based in LGA you how many times when waiting for the employee shuttle to the parking lot we would get mistaken for skycaps?
Some guido shows up, drops his luggage; "Doze bags arh goin' ta lawderdale!"
I suppose that sometimes they could see the captain in that same mood as well.
SkyHigh
05-01-2008, 07:19 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Livin' the Dream!
Posts: 29
Invisible FOs?
Originally Posted by TimSmith
With due respect, you are wrong in everything you said in this post. The FO is a valuable and irreplaceable part of the crew. I have flown both seats and understand the responsibilities of both seats. A good FO makes the captain's life easy, less stressful, and less distracting. That enables the captain to easily spot anything abnormal or unusual and asses its threat to a safe operation. The FO at organizations I am familiar with have the authority to ensure a flight is operated safely and efficiently.
Anyone who looks down at the FO or does not appreciate their responsibilities and duties as an FO needs to be re-trained or in another industry. Anyone who believes a single pilot operation is better than a crew operation does not know the history of this industry nor are they aware of the magnitude of risk they are proposing.
Crews are only as good as their weakest link. Sometimes that is the captain, sometimes the FO. Working together, the CREW is stronger and safer.
Anyone who looks down at the FO or does not appreciate their responsibilities and duties as an FO needs to be re-trained or in another industry. Anyone who believes a single pilot operation is better than a crew operation does not know the history of this industry nor are they aware of the magnitude of risk they are proposing.
Crews are only as good as their weakest link. Sometimes that is the captain, sometimes the FO. Working together, the CREW is stronger and safer.
I had to read all the way through the thread to see if someone else had responded, I'm glad I did cause you hit the nail on the head!
Any Capt who takes his FO for granted is asking for trouble. As a Capt it is your opportunity to mentor your FO, and show them exactly how CRM is supposed to work. Most FO's work their tails off and the good Captains are the ones who not only acknowlegde it, but give back when possible. With all the pipelines to the majors, you never know the background and experience your Capt or FO is brining to the table.
Skyhigh,
If you're feeling "invisible" right now or when you were a FO, I hope you remember that when you're flying in left seat so you don't treat your FOs the way you hated being treated. Regardless, good luck to you!
05-01-2008, 07:32 AM
#25
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Stress
Originally Posted by saab2000
I don't know what company has 'lower' standards or fewer expectations of the folks in the right seat. The standards are different, but not lower. And the right seat is not a low stress job.
If a captain makes an off color remark to a FA they risk harsh punishment. How is the "new guy" First Officer suppose to march into the chief pilots office with complaints about rouge long time captains? What system is there in place for the FO to raise questions about their superiors without facing retaliation or consequences? The FO is told that they are to speak up but really no one cares. They have no power and no input on anything.
The overbearing undertone from airline culture is for First Officers to sit there quietly look cute and competent but don't touch anything.
SkyHigh
05-01-2008, 07:36 AM
#26
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Respect
Originally Posted by gushubble
Tim,
I had to read all the way through the thread to see if someone else had responded, I'm glad I did cause you hit the nail on the head!
Any Capt who takes his FO for granted is asking for trouble. As a Capt it is your opportunity to mentor your FO, and show them exactly how CRM is supposed to work. Most FO's work their tails off and the good Captains are the ones who not only acknowlegde it, but give back when possible. With all the pipelines to the majors, you never know the background and experience your Capt or FO is brining to the table.
Skyhigh,
If you're feeling "invisible" right now or when you were a FO, I hope you remember that when you're flying in left seat so you don't treat your FOs the way you hated being treated. Regardless, good luck to you!
I had to read all the way through the thread to see if someone else had responded, I'm glad I did cause you hit the nail on the head!
Any Capt who takes his FO for granted is asking for trouble. As a Capt it is your opportunity to mentor your FO, and show them exactly how CRM is supposed to work. Most FO's work their tails off and the good Captains are the ones who not only acknowlegde it, but give back when possible. With all the pipelines to the majors, you never know the background and experience your Capt or FO is brining to the table.
Skyhigh,
If you're feeling "invisible" right now or when you were a FO, I hope you remember that when you're flying in left seat so you don't treat your FOs the way you hated being treated. Regardless, good luck to you!
SkyHigh
05-01-2008, 07:42 AM
#27
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Nasty Captains
Usually the most nasty captains never spent much time as an FO. Either they were lucky and advanced quickly or they would search the world over and would only take jobs as street captains no matter how badly it hurt the rest of their lives because they couldn't be nasty as an FO.
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
05-01-2008, 08:31 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 210
SkyHigh,
It is apparent that you had "personality" differences with your captains while you were an FO. You should have taken those to the Chief Pilot if you believed those differences to endanger safety. If any captain was "abusing" you or the crew, then you had a responsibility to speak up. If a CP does not take you seriously, there is your union and professional standards department. Your opinion of FOs being worthless and ignored is incorrect and ill informed. Your posts illustrate your bitterness toward the profession. A profession you chose, took your shot, felt it was not what you expected and moved on. It is a good thing you are not involved in airline flying any more because you do not understand the concept of crew and its importance to safety. You see a mentor and apprentice relationship. While captains mentor FOs and give them tips and instruction on how the operation is run, they also need the FOs input and involvement in the operation.
I tell every future pilot I meet that the lifestyle is tough, the industry is unstable, and it is hard on your relationships. I also tell them of the benefits of the job. This job is not for everybody. It is for a select few who understand what is required. That is not elitist or arrogant. Why? Because what is required is some personal sacrifices and a lot on perseverance. PERSEVERANCE is the common attribute of airline pilots. The industry is not made up of the BEST pilots, just those who persevered and did not give up.
Sky, just because you did not fit in this industry does not mean it is evil or ruined your life. Your choices determine your life success. The industry is what it is, but if the FO is irrelevant, why is the airplane type certificated for TWO pilots? I guess they thought every airline would fly two captains on every flight, huh?
It is apparent that you had "personality" differences with your captains while you were an FO. You should have taken those to the Chief Pilot if you believed those differences to endanger safety. If any captain was "abusing" you or the crew, then you had a responsibility to speak up. If a CP does not take you seriously, there is your union and professional standards department. Your opinion of FOs being worthless and ignored is incorrect and ill informed. Your posts illustrate your bitterness toward the profession. A profession you chose, took your shot, felt it was not what you expected and moved on. It is a good thing you are not involved in airline flying any more because you do not understand the concept of crew and its importance to safety. You see a mentor and apprentice relationship. While captains mentor FOs and give them tips and instruction on how the operation is run, they also need the FOs input and involvement in the operation.
I tell every future pilot I meet that the lifestyle is tough, the industry is unstable, and it is hard on your relationships. I also tell them of the benefits of the job. This job is not for everybody. It is for a select few who understand what is required. That is not elitist or arrogant. Why? Because what is required is some personal sacrifices and a lot on perseverance. PERSEVERANCE is the common attribute of airline pilots. The industry is not made up of the BEST pilots, just those who persevered and did not give up.
Sky, just because you did not fit in this industry does not mean it is evil or ruined your life. Your choices determine your life success. The industry is what it is, but if the FO is irrelevant, why is the airplane type certificated for TWO pilots? I guess they thought every airline would fly two captains on every flight, huh?
05-01-2008, 08:40 AM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 78
I've been an F/O for 21 years here at USAir. I can hold a line on the E-190 but why would I do that when it means taking an $18/hr paycut? Not that I don't want to be a Capt (been there done that got the ASA uniform to prove it) but at this point this is strictly about QOL and $$$ what little there is 
Also BTW I believe that everyone at USAirways is now type rated on their equipment reguardless of seat. So both of us or all three are valued in the cockpit. I've even had C/O's tell me time and again that they feel that we are both Capt's. We DO have a very good bunch of guys here.
Also BTW I believe that everyone at USAirways is now type rated on their equipment reguardless of seat. So both of us or all three are valued in the cockpit. I've even had C/O's tell me time and again that they feel that we are both Capt's. We DO have a very good bunch of guys here.
Last edited by War Eagle 83; 05-01-2008 at 08:47 AM.
05-01-2008, 09:09 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
At best a First Officer is a voice activated autopilot that is there to gain experience through silent observation. No one wants the FO's opinion. The FO does not sign any legal documents in relation to the flight. The FO does not give Captain evaluations and are rarely held liable when something goes wrong. They are hardly even there and can be found mostly as a silent and nearly invisible shadow to the captain.
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
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