Hello all,

These are uncertain times, and as a 20-something RJ guy who was learning to drive a car during the last downturn I have a few questions for those of you who have seen bad times and furloughs before. While I'm hopefully high enough up the seniority list to avoid a furlough (depending how deep it goes), I recognize that anything can happen, including the regional I work for going away entirely.

Our union has been pretty good about communicating with us, but I'm curious what kind of things unions have done in the past to take care of furloughed pilots. I personally would be willing to donate $XXX/month to some kind of furlough fund going towards health insurance premiums and other things like that to the furloughed guys and girls. However, I say that as a single guy with no kids and therefore a bit more financial latitude (assuming I don't get the axe myself). If any of you ladies and gents can share what kind of support programs have been set up in previous downturns I'd be keen to hear it. I'm not involved in my union in any capacity other than being a dues-paying member, but I'm just looking for some context on what the industry norms are, if any.

Things I've learned from the guys and girls who have seen this before, such as the "full pay to the last day" mentality are invaluable to those of us who havent ridden this roller coaster before, so I'm trying to glean what else is out there for my fellow pilots if the F bomb drops.

If this borders along the lines of negotiating in public, then disregard this and we can turn this thread into to a debate around the veracity of calling a miata a sports car.

edit: grammar

Management will always use whatever they can to "doom and gloom" the pilots into concessions.. Then if they gain said concessions, they will ask for more. "Never let a good crisis go to waste" sounds cliché, but it is an absolute truth and should be remembered when ever you hear anything from management.

Any concession voluntarily given up will take years, if not decades to regain. At the same time executive pay will bounce back as soon as any contractual restriction expires.

Management will hire lawyers and PR firms to manipulate the work groups. They will set up fancy websites to pit work groups against each other. "Look at those rich pilots not chipping in..."

Concessions won't save a job.

That about sums up my thoughts on concessions

Flying will return eventually, whether it's a year or 5. If furloughed, you'll be in a cockpit again in the future. It is never as bad as it seems, and when good times are happening always prepare for the downturn. Listen to the guys that have been around. You don't have to take all their advice or rhetoric, but take bits and pieces that are pertinent to you. Nothing is more valuable than real experience, both in the job of flying and in life/economic experience that we find ourselves in every 10 yrs.

During my 1st furlough I was in my mid 20's, got a job in a data entry center. Met some cool people my age (girls), went out more, and had fun. 2nd furlough resulted in finding a much better job 2 years later that pays 2-3x as much... Look for silver linings.


I think it's semi important to have an idea where someone is coming from so here's me. Like you said, single and younger may have a different perspective than older guys:
-20 yr airline employee, current (at the moment) Captain. Feel somewhat safe from furlough, but expect a possible downgrade and paycut.
-Like many, worked during 9/11, the great recession, and now this
-1st wife, 2 kids, single income family.

I believe in shared sacrifice. If a member of my seniority list is going to lose their job, then we all feel the pain from number one to the bottom pilot. The cornerstone of trade unionism is shared gains and shared sacrifice. I agree that we should not concede that which must be negotiated back - but rather that which will come back on its own as demand is restored. For example a lower guarantee becomes irrelevant as customer demand returns. A pilot group that makes the choice to forgo open time while pilots are on furlough will help their company to forecast staffing needs absent the variable participation in the open time system. If open time can't be covered by reserves or junior manning, it must be time to recall. The pilot group should offer to provide furloughee healthcare. The company should offer furloughee travel for the duration of the furlough. These small gestures by the company and the pilots will foster unity among those who are recalled. Even then, expect that not all will come back. Some pilots who the company invested in training and onboarding will never return. They'll move on with life and do what they need to do to put food on the table.

They sacrifice 100% of their pay. Many will lose their homes. There will be divorces. Families uprooted and ripped apart. So, yes. I am willing to share in that pain to save even a single job.

Saying "full pay to the last day" means only one thing. You're pretty confident that you're senior enough to be safe and you don't want anybody to move your cheese.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think there is a huge difference in full pay till last day, and reduced hours at full pay.

I think there is a huge difference between a Miata and a sports car...

Definitely see both sides. Unless nothing changes from pre-covid, there will always be someone left out in the rain or pain felt in some area. This is business after all bottom line and those with 20, 25, 30, 35 years of career have been on the roller coaster ride and know what companies do as they first chop your fingers off, then hands, then an arm, next arm and finally legs in concessionary measures or they do feel the right to squeeze the cheese nearing their retirement like the stock market ups and downs. Either way pain is spread around in some form or another and worse in many cases. Definitely honorable to fight collectively and take care of each other if at all possible, it just depends on how deep this drain goes and does anybody know. Not an advocate for either side by any means, but everyone knows this has never been a stable industry and if you thought different, you know now which personally which bites. I do not have even 15 years, but have watched for decades what a gamble it is. Hope everyone is able to keep everything intact, but you know what they say about hope... Just be glad the 65 benchmark doesn’t look to be moved to 70. Personally will quit earlier, but who knows and there was a lot of stagnation for that one alone.

Pony Express:

You asked some great questions. I've been at the same regional airline for almost twenty years and I've been through two furloughs. I can't speak for the entire regional industry, but I can tell you what has happened at our company:

(1) We have a union, but the union's "involvement" in the furlough process is to represent the pilot group, make sure that management FOLLOWS our contract with regard to furloughs and downgrades, and communicate any news to our pilot group. We have never been able to put together a "furlough fund" to support our unemployed pilots. In fact, I'm not aware of any union (at the regional level) that has managed to do this.

(2) Concessions to avoid furloughs: In THEORY, this isn't a bad idea, but it's never worked in practice. Even trying to put a time limit on a concession is a risky strategy. Our union leaders know that. So I'm one of those "full pay to the last day" people.

During our most recent furlough in 2009-2011, we went from about 780 pilots on our seniority list to a low of about 560. About 15% of our pilots were furloughed, another 12% went out on leave, and a few retired or quit. The maximum "furlough duration" (for those unlucky souls on the bottom of the seniority list) was two years.

Hope this helps.

Definitely, thank you for the history lesson. I knew very little about the furlough from that time period

I know I’m preaching to the choir, but WHY WHY would any pilot group, even think about taking concessions?? First off, we saw what a disaster that was in the 2000s, and second....with furloughs likely anyway in 4 months, everyone should build up as much savings as possible.

A furlough in our industry is a fancy union word for laid off. You have no more benefits or relations with the company other than they keep your phone number as well as seniority number for when they have to bring you back. Kind of like in the mafia if you’re in the slammer you’re on your own until you get out. Don’t expect any kind of care from the union, they take care of active members first. Keep your Chief pilots number, they are a good source usually of news for recalls.