Nothing is more sad than the veteran who has come to despise the flag he served under.

What is really sad is an armchair ranger calling veterans cowards.

I had to laugh.

I have. Repeatedly.

Is this where you tell us that a veteran's opinion is more valid than someone who isn't a veteran?


Like most other well-educated people. Life experience and countless hours reading books like this...

Fixed it for you.

And I agree. That's why I edited my comment and gave a reason for it. Something tells me you aren't really laughing. Unlike you, I can admit I can be wrong.

Its always strange to me that some of those who never served will not stand for any critique of the military. But you can always tell a vet by the slight chip on thier shoulder.

My advise to UnderOveur: Serve 10 years, then apply for some form of VA benefit. One year after that (when you still haven't recieved your benefits) please report back to this thread at that time and we can discuss patriotism vs. pragmatism.

Actually, I can stand a lot of critique of the military, and of America as well. I just insist it be well-argued and defended, which it usually isn't.

UnderOveur, you need to realize something that many military members figure out shortly after signing up. The US Military doesn't love you, care about you or frankly care in any form what hardships you go through. You are a number to it. It does calculations of what amount of BS you will stand for before quitting (when your time is up), then it does just that amount. If it undershoots it will throw large sums of money at you, and MAYBE improve working conditions. If it overshoots it will kick you out without a second thought.

At least in the Air Force, your leadership is largely comprised of careerist "yes men" who will make your life a living hell with no compunction when it means a quicker promotion for themselves. Please go check out the baseops.net forums for thoughts on AF leadership from actual members of that organization.

Then you have a population in the US who have no 'effing clue what is asked for of our men and women in uniform who elect into congress people who also have no idea what it’s like to serve. Please look into your academic literature as to how many of our last SecDef's had a single day in uniform. Gates was beloved by many of in our service because he HAD served and knew that much of the danger to our national defense comes not from overseas but from our own leadership and its complete lack of focus on everything but its own growth and survival.

Please put down your book about 18th century america and read the following:

Robert Gates: Overhaul the Pentagon

Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq, 2003 to 2005: Thomas E. Ricks: 9780143038917: Amazon.com: Books

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums...etter-leaders/

Or better yet, spend 10 years dealing with the organization (pick your branch) and report back.

There is a great difference between serving under a flag and "for" the politicians who persistently use the military for social engineering and fighting wars without victory as a goal.

I took an oath and served 22 years; my wife served six. Our loyalty was to our fellow airmen, mission and country - not to any politician. I never met a military member or vet who despised the flag. In fact they cherish the thought of it being folded over their casket some day.

I served under the worse SECDEF in history (McNamara) but anticipate that Hagel will be even worse.

I did 10+ years and I don't feel much of the same things that you do. Guess everyone can have different experiences.

From what I can tell the marines attract a different sort of officer. (Understatement of the year.)

That being said I don't think DOD really cares about individual marines (short of those who gave the ultimate). Honestly, how many divorces, troubled dependent children, alcoholics, suicides, etc do the service chiefs really "care" about? It makes them look bad, sure but I never get the impression that they go home worrying about it. I can tell you of guys who went to the boss pleading to not deploy because their wife was ready to leave them and they were ordered out the door, despite having other options. The ORI was coming to town after all and they weren't on "the list"...

I think the point of this though is to say you hate the flag because you look suscpisously at our government and it's leaders is way off base. I think one needs to realize that there are many people in our government who care more about themselves than "the flag" and being upset about that or pointing it out isn't unpatriotic. More towards UnderOvuer than to you.