Communication Safety Concern
08-10-2018, 12:11 PM
#1
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 8
Communication Safety Concern
I have had trips lately where I have started to worry about our ability to communicate to ATC and to each other in the cockpit.
Since we have so many people from all over the world with many different backgrounds I'd like to say this thread is about opening a dialog on safety and not a personal attack on an individual or group in particular.
I don't know if there are ATC professionals on this board as I'd be very curious to know if they've had a hard time recently communicating with our crews. Not just that but if there has a been a noticeable change.
I have no suggestions on how to address this problem. I don't even know if this is a problem on a national scale. I'm not losing my hearing but I must sound like it by how often I need things repeated in the cockpit. While I don't have proof it feels like ATC is asking people to "say again" when anything other than a frequency change happens. Sometimes I have no idea what the guy next to me said to ATC and ATC responds to him with a "roger".
This communication safety issue is not only an issue for people with accents or English as a second language but for new hires too that have next to zero real world experience.
I feel like our new hires need a better foundation on proper phraseology. There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.
As always our captains continue to guide and gently nudge the uninitiated into line but I feel like we have been over run. I will gladly continue to help those who want to communicate properly and efficiently if they are interested. We also have an issue with people brining really low quality microphones to work. Some of these microphones need to be readjusted every time they talk because it has ether fallen away or they have to shove it in to their mouth to make them audible. I appreciate us not needing TSO'd headsets and being free but at some point we need to be able to say -this is not acceptable-.
Does anyone else see this as a safety concern?
Since we have so many people from all over the world with many different backgrounds I'd like to say this thread is about opening a dialog on safety and not a personal attack on an individual or group in particular.
I don't know if there are ATC professionals on this board as I'd be very curious to know if they've had a hard time recently communicating with our crews. Not just that but if there has a been a noticeable change.
I have no suggestions on how to address this problem. I don't even know if this is a problem on a national scale. I'm not losing my hearing but I must sound like it by how often I need things repeated in the cockpit. While I don't have proof it feels like ATC is asking people to "say again" when anything other than a frequency change happens. Sometimes I have no idea what the guy next to me said to ATC and ATC responds to him with a "roger".
This communication safety issue is not only an issue for people with accents or English as a second language but for new hires too that have next to zero real world experience.
I feel like our new hires need a better foundation on proper phraseology. There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.
As always our captains continue to guide and gently nudge the uninitiated into line but I feel like we have been over run. I will gladly continue to help those who want to communicate properly and efficiently if they are interested. We also have an issue with people brining really low quality microphones to work. Some of these microphones need to be readjusted every time they talk because it has ether fallen away or they have to shove it in to their mouth to make them audible. I appreciate us not needing TSO'd headsets and being free but at some point we need to be able to say -this is not acceptable-.
Does anyone else see this as a safety concern?
08-10-2018, 03:01 PM
#4
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 803
Host,
Yes, I see this subject a cause for concern and safety. Is SkyWest going to do anything about it, No. Why, there's really nothing they can. When an applicant shows up and has the "English Proficient" endorsement on their license the FAA says "good enough" which is "good enough" for SkyWest. Period. SkyWest needs the body and they really don't care about that person's use of the English language. If they have the minimums, they are as suited for hiring as anybody, never mind you can't adequately communicate with them. Your problem, not the company's.
Also, this could be seen as discrimination by the company. If the company went after somebody for their inability to adequately communicate and they launched a law suit back to the company it might be successful as they have their "English Proficient" endorsement. SkyWest avoids law suits with all they can.
SkyWest is not an innovator of safety, as it costs money. They do the FAA minimum. SkyWest is an innovator of profit. So to the original subject to scrutinize someone's English ability would only cost the company.
And one final note, I have heard the company likes to have the sponsorship of their right to work in the US. It makes them beholden to the company. I've also heard that they feel those from other countries are more prone to do what the company wants with out resistance.
If you think less like a pilot and more like an accountant you can see why it makes sense. Follow the money.
Yes, I see this subject a cause for concern and safety. Is SkyWest going to do anything about it, No. Why, there's really nothing they can. When an applicant shows up and has the "English Proficient" endorsement on their license the FAA says "good enough" which is "good enough" for SkyWest. Period. SkyWest needs the body and they really don't care about that person's use of the English language. If they have the minimums, they are as suited for hiring as anybody, never mind you can't adequately communicate with them. Your problem, not the company's.
Also, this could be seen as discrimination by the company. If the company went after somebody for their inability to adequately communicate and they launched a law suit back to the company it might be successful as they have their "English Proficient" endorsement. SkyWest avoids law suits with all they can.
SkyWest is not an innovator of safety, as it costs money. They do the FAA minimum. SkyWest is an innovator of profit. So to the original subject to scrutinize someone's English ability would only cost the company.
And one final note, I have heard the company likes to have the sponsorship of their right to work in the US. It makes them beholden to the company. I've also heard that they feel those from other countries are more prone to do what the company wants with out resistance.
If you think less like a pilot and more like an accountant you can see why it makes sense. Follow the money.
08-10-2018, 04:03 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,294
Originally Posted by Check Complete
Host,
Yes, I see this subject a cause for concern and safety. Is SkyWest going to do anything about it, No. Why, there's really nothing they can. When an applicant shows up and has the "English Proficient" endorsement on their license the FAA says "good enough" which is "good enough" for SkyWest. Period. SkyWest needs the body and they really don't care about that person's use of the English language. If they have the minimums, they are as suited for hiring as anybody, never mind you can't adequately communicate with them. Your problem, not the company's.
Also, this could be seen as discrimination by the company. If the company went after somebody for their inability to adequately communicate and they launched a law suit back to the company it might be successful as they have their "English Proficient" endorsement. SkyWest avoids law suits with all they can.
SkyWest is not an innovator of safety, as it costs money. They do the FAA minimum. SkyWest is an innovator of profit. So to the original subject to scrutinize someone's English ability would only cost the company.
And one final note, I have heard the company likes to have the sponsorship of their right to work in the US. It makes them beholden to the company. I've also heard that they feel those from other countries are more prone to do what the company wants with out resistance.
If you think less like a pilot and more like an accountant you can see why it makes sense. Follow the money.
Yes, I see this subject a cause for concern and safety. Is SkyWest going to do anything about it, No. Why, there's really nothing they can. When an applicant shows up and has the "English Proficient" endorsement on their license the FAA says "good enough" which is "good enough" for SkyWest. Period. SkyWest needs the body and they really don't care about that person's use of the English language. If they have the minimums, they are as suited for hiring as anybody, never mind you can't adequately communicate with them. Your problem, not the company's.
Also, this could be seen as discrimination by the company. If the company went after somebody for their inability to adequately communicate and they launched a law suit back to the company it might be successful as they have their "English Proficient" endorsement. SkyWest avoids law suits with all they can.
SkyWest is not an innovator of safety, as it costs money. They do the FAA minimum. SkyWest is an innovator of profit. So to the original subject to scrutinize someone's English ability would only cost the company.
And one final note, I have heard the company likes to have the sponsorship of their right to work in the US. It makes them beholden to the company. I've also heard that they feel those from other countries are more prone to do what the company wants with out resistance.
If you think less like a pilot and more like an accountant you can see why it makes sense. Follow the money.
08-11-2018, 07:02 PM
#7
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,269
An employer would be at risk of getting sued for discrimination if they added specific english proficiency requirements on top of what the FAA has specified. Juries would nail them to the wall... if the FAA said it's safe enough, it must be.
I have heard however that the FAA is tightening up the requirements, or at least considering it. Keep filing safety reports if you want them to notice.
I have heard however that the FAA is tightening up the requirements, or at least considering it. Keep filing safety reports if you want them to notice.
08-12-2018, 04:38 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 327
Originally Posted by WHOisHMSHost
I have had trips lately where I have started to worry about our ability to communicate to ATC and to each other in the cockpit.
Since we have so many people from all over the world with many different backgrounds I'd like to say this thread is about opening a dialog on safety and not a personal attack on an individual or group in particular.
I don't know if there are ATC professionals on this board as I'd be very curious to know if they've had a hard time recently communicating with our crews. Not just that but if there has a been a noticeable change.
I have no suggestions on how to address this problem. I don't even know if this is a problem on a national scale. I'm not losing my hearing but I must sound like it by how often I need things repeated in the cockpit. While I don't have proof it feels like ATC is asking people to "say again" when anything other than a frequency change happens. Sometimes I have no idea what the guy next to me said to ATC and ATC responds to him with a "roger".
This communication safety issue is not only an issue for people with accents or English as a second language but for new hires too that have next to zero real world experience.
I feel like our new hires need a better foundation on proper phraseology. There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.
As always our captains continue to guide and gently nudge the uninitiated into line but I feel like we have been over run. I will gladly continue to help those who want to communicate properly and efficiently if they are interested. We also have an issue with people brining really low quality microphones to work. Some of these microphones need to be readjusted every time they talk because it has ether fallen away or they have to shove it in to their mouth to make them audible. I appreciate us not needing TSO'd headsets and being free but at some point we need to be able to say -this is not acceptable-.
Does anyone else see this as a safety concern?
Since we have so many people from all over the world with many different backgrounds I'd like to say this thread is about opening a dialog on safety and not a personal attack on an individual or group in particular.
I don't know if there are ATC professionals on this board as I'd be very curious to know if they've had a hard time recently communicating with our crews. Not just that but if there has a been a noticeable change.
I have no suggestions on how to address this problem. I don't even know if this is a problem on a national scale. I'm not losing my hearing but I must sound like it by how often I need things repeated in the cockpit. While I don't have proof it feels like ATC is asking people to "say again" when anything other than a frequency change happens. Sometimes I have no idea what the guy next to me said to ATC and ATC responds to him with a "roger".
This communication safety issue is not only an issue for people with accents or English as a second language but for new hires too that have next to zero real world experience.
I feel like our new hires need a better foundation on proper phraseology. There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.
As always our captains continue to guide and gently nudge the uninitiated into line but I feel like we have been over run. I will gladly continue to help those who want to communicate properly and efficiently if they are interested. We also have an issue with people brining really low quality microphones to work. Some of these microphones need to be readjusted every time they talk because it has ether fallen away or they have to shove it in to their mouth to make them audible. I appreciate us not needing TSO'd headsets and being free but at some point we need to be able to say -this is not acceptable-.
Does anyone else see this as a safety concern?
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