Originally Posted by Turbosina

That's a simplistic and inaccurate version of history.

Hughes Airwest had 727s and DC-9s.

Mohawk had the BAC-111. Read the ad, it's from 1965. "The first regional airline with an all-jet fleet!"

The old PSA had the BAE-146, B-727, and more.

I could go on.




Right. And now guys fly their CRJ-200, -700, -900, EMB-135/145/175, and upgrade, and hopefully move on to the right seat of a narrowbody at a mainline or LCC carrier.

The only difference is the size of the regional aircraft.



If mainline management had its way, everything would be outsourced. Unionized mainline jobs (pilots, FAs, ground service, CS, MX, etc) would go to non-unionized employees at contract carriers. Didn't Jeff Smisek once wistfully muse that he'd turn United into nothing but a brand and a logo, with absolutely everything else outsourced? And look at how DAL is basically focusing on domestic flying, and shifting more int'l flying to joint-venture partners.

Now, I'm not saying that any of this is good for the pilot community. It's not. But it is the reality of the industry.



I tell them I fly for Pan Am IV.

Originally Posted by RJDio

Mohawk, Hughes Airwest, and PSA were not fee for departure flying as united express,delta connection, northwest airlink, etc.

Originally Posted by RJDio

So again I ask: why should we acquiesce to managements request to erode scope further?

Originally Posted by Lambourne

One point is that you are the one that threw out the barb that mainline sold out regional pilots. Go back to your first post in this thread.

Originally Posted by Turbosina

(The following is obviously my personal opinion and should be considered to be worth approximately what you paid for it.)

Reading this thread makes me shake my head in amazement.

We're all pilots, right? We all generally want the same things: Fair and just work rules, and compensation that rewards our years of experience and training, not to mention the level of risk we assume each time we report to work. Management, on the other hand, would like nothing more than to tear up our contracts (for those airlines that have them) and make us all work for Third World wages. Their interests are diametrically opposed to ours.

And yet we pilots spend our time slinging mud at each other instead of working together towards a common goal.

Mainline guys profess their enthusiasm to have all RJs parked, forgetting for a moment that 1) they themselves likely came from a regional, and 2) The days of the turboprop are over. Meaning that, if you're a mainline pilot and you want your relative seniority to improve, you need guys behind you. Unless mainline carriers suddenly get rid of turbine and/or Part 121 experience requirements, it's hard to see where those junior mainline pilots would come from, other than the regionals. Sure, there's the military, but we all know the military won't be able to supply anywhere near enough pilots to address the mainline retirements that are only just starting to accelerate. And yes, there are the Part 135 and Part 91 turbine operations, but again, they don't collectively have nearly enough pilots to meet future demand at mainline.

All that said, let's look at a few realities...

First: Mainline management is motivated purely by a desire to cut costs to a bare minimum. They are constrained in this desire only by the existence of labor contracts. And regional feed is cheaper – plain and simple – than operating that feed with mainline aircraft. Point me to one regional carrier whose costs per seat mile are equal to or higher than mainline. Because I'd like to short that carrier's stock and I'd appreciate the tip.

Regional airlines don't get to operate more than 50% of US domestic departures simply because they're clever; they do so because they're cheaper. It's that simple. Unless that cost differential evaporates, mainline management will continue to outsource as much flying as their labor contracts will allow. There is no incentive for them to do otherwise.

Second: The days of the turboprop are over. It is not realistic for mainline pilots to expect regional guys to gain their required experience in the EMB-120s and B-1900s of yore, while leaving the jet flying to mainline pilots. Passengers hate turboprops with a passion, and aircraft manufacturers aren't investing in new turboprop designs, nor are they doing a great job of supporting the older turboprops. So the days of the regional jet are here to stay.

Third: While it is indeed possible for mainline carriers to shift flying from RJs to narrowbodies, there is a significant risk associated with doing so, which a competitor may well exploit. That risk is simply frequency. When John Q. Executive goes to book a flight from an outstation to a hub, and is given the choice between one daily 737 departure on Airline A, and three daily CRJ-200 departures on Airline B, he's going to pick Airline B every time. Even if Airline B shifts that flying to a narrowbody aircraft, that then creates the opportunity for Airline C to come in and offer better frequency.

Fourth: Of course it's possible for mainline pilots to agree to fly regional-sized aircraft at mainline pay rates. However, in order for this to happen, the mainline pilot group is going to have to give something up, because a shift like that would not be cost-neutral. To date, we have not seen any mainline pilot group vote to add regional-sized aircraft to the fleet and start actually flying those trips. Sure, the pay scales exist, but so far, it has not happened. Not being a mainline pilot I can't speak to the internal discussions at those pilot groups. I would be curious to hear whether those negotiations have been opened.

Fifth: Fuel continues to be relatively cheap, far below the peaks reached in the last gas crisis. As such, relatively inefficient RJs (i.e. the CRJ-200, etc.) will continue to be financially viable until we see another spike in fuel prices.

All of these factors above...point to the continued existence of regional airlines, flying jet aircraft, often on routes that seem to make little sense for 'regional' carriers (like the XNA-SFO leg I did last week.)

Sixth: As another poster wisely said, the greatest threat to the American pilot profession isn't the proliferation of RJs. The greatest threat is the possibility of cabotage, of operations like Norwegian that promise to do for the aviation industry what countries like Panama and Sierra Leone have done for the maritime (shipping) industry. There are countless pilots in the Second and Third Worlds who'd fly American regional jets for a fraction of even a regional pilot's tiny salary.

Anyhow, let me close my longwinded blathering by saying once again:

We are all pilots. We all want fair pay and working conditions. We are, however, merely employees; we do not own the means of production. As such, it is to our benefit to work together. To unite, rather than to bicker on an Internet forum (which accomplishes precisely nothing.) What we should be doing is getting involved politically to stop the threats that truly exist to our profession, cabotage being the greatest one. We should write our elected representatives, volunteer for our unions, and donate to political candidates that promise to stop cabotage.

Instead, we accuse each other of being entitled Millennials, or of being grouchy ol' mainline guys selling scope for shekels. We argue and bicker and insult people we've never met but with whom we'd probably get along just fine on a four-day.

If we invested just a portion of that energy into fighting for things that will lift up the entire professional pilot population, rather than constructing artificial divides among mainline, regional, and LCC guys...

...this whole profession would be a lot better off.

Originally Posted by Turbosina

When did I say that? This is what I said:

Well for that to happen, mainline pilots would have to change their minds and elect to fly those aircraft. And mainline management would have to be willing to pay mainline wages to fly those aircraft. Neither of these two conditions has been true for a very long time.


Where does that say that mainline pilots sold out regional pilots? As far as I can tell, the above is simply a statement of fact. I have not heard of any mainline pilot group voting to bring RJs in-house and have them flown at mainline, so if I'm wrong on that, please educate me....

Originally Posted by Lambourne

By tightening the loop holes in scope in the past contracts the mainline pilots are voting to bring flying back in house. You do understand how this process works right? Just like the liberalization of scope allowed for the buildup of RJ flying the tightening will help deconstruct. It doesn't happen over night but mainline pilots are doing their part to reduce RJ flying.

What steps would you propose we take? I would prefer to see turboprops back at the regionals and the large RJ's at mainline.

Originally Posted by Mercyful Fate

When you going to move on and take your wisdom to the other boards? Or are you going to take the General Lee route and just hang around here and spout off, while robbing the major boards of all the wonderful things you have to say?

Originally Posted by Lambourne

I would prefer to see turboprops back at the regionals and the large RJ's at mainline.

Originally Posted by Turbosina

The days of the turboprop are over. Nobody's building new ones and Bombardier isn't doing much to support the Q400, let alone the -200 and -300. The SF340 is almost done, the E120 is no longer in US Part 121 service, and Great Lakes has some ratty B1900s.

Plus, passengers hate them with a passion. Aside from the few airports into which jets can't fit, turboprops are done.