even if "they never have flown with you ?"

I suppose it is better than nothing

 

SWA will specifically want references from people who can attest to your flying abilities, but some of your references can be character references as well. I don't think it matters which one the internal rec is as long as they know you well enough to speak knowledgeably about you, your work habits, your personality, etc. If that's all you have, then go with it. It won't hurt you unless they call your reference and he denies knowing anything about you

Also, flying "with" someone means different things at different places. I might have flown once or twice in the same plane as some of my USAF friends, but I "flew with them" for years in the same squadron, seeing their results and professional attitude every single day. A guy at another airline that I went through training with, I "flew with" him for 2 months in training and never saw him again. I think the HR people know that there are going to be variances in how well a reference knows you. Remember, they're looking for more than just someone who can attest that they sat next to you in a plane and you didn't suck bad enough to crash

 

While you can certainly think it is ludicrous that 1700 fighter jocks get hired before 10,000 TT RJ captains, the people who really matter in this discussion, aka the HR guys, do not think it is ludicrous. They obviously value the experience of those 1700 F-whatever dudes and dude-ettes industry-wide, so by the current HR standards, I guess it's not ludicrous.

Yes, they don't have 121 time, but their CRM goes well beyond 121 CRM of "I'm the CA and I'd like it done THIS way." There is no such thing as "single seat." They fly in formations of 2 or 4, and if you think CRM is a challenge cross-cockpit, try it amongst 4 cockpits at the same time. As for hi-density airports, consider flying into Nellis AFB at a night Red Flag mission with 80 aircraft recovering in 18 minutes and someone crumps the runway while you have 9 minutes of fuel left. Or Elmendorf AFB (Anchorage AK) in the same scenario, but it's -12 F at night with terrain and the "Low Fuel" light is blinking. Or Afghanistan, landing on a blacked-out airfield using NVGs because the airport is being shelled and you have the Low Fuel light on. Or at night on the carrier with a pitching deck, and an emergency going on. Obviously HR, industry wide, prefers this caliber of pilot at 1700 hrs TT to those with thousands more of autopilot time.

I'm not a F-guy, and I like to pick on them at the bar as much as the next dude, but there is a valid reason why they skip the RJs and go straight to the mainline carriers, and it ain't just the "Good 'Ol boy network."

 

And remember, many of the guys accomplishing the tasks you listed are doing those thing LONG before they have 1700 hours.

 

Overall, I agree with this. The military folks are a 'known" quantity. Their training from day one is very intense, competitive and inflexible, so anyone who's completed it is generally assumed to be competent and the vast majority are.

GA training varies, so at the 1700 hour mark, a GA pilot's experience and competency level can be all over the map. As the GA's pilots hours increase, typically, they become less of an unknown quantity, particularly if they go the regional route with established training and proficiency standards.

Once you get to the majors, the playing field is much more level. In my 32 year career, I've flown with pilots, in all 3 seats, of every background imaginable.

The best, and worst pilots (from competency and personality standpoints) I've flown with have come from all of them.

In my top ten list of the most miserable humans that I wouldn't urinate on if they were on fire, that I've had the "pleasure" of flying with, the top five of them are civilian only background. The rest are former or retired USAF and one USN guy.

I just finished a trip with a retired AF Col. (flew heavies). It was a long 4 days, and he was actually a pretty good guy, all things considered. The "I'm right, even when I am wrong" attitude gets old fast though. I did beat him to the EAI switches once.

If I were given the option of choosing a brand new hire to fly with into busy airports and bad weather, and the ONLY info given for me to use in guiding my decision was that one was ex military and one was a regional guy/gal, I would choose the latter every single time.

Of course, it varies, but IME, there's much less chance of me being a defacto, unpaid IOE Captain with the regional pilot that's been doing this exact job for years vs. the guy who has never done it before.

FWIW, I've had to take an airplane away from another pilot 3 times in my life, something that I will only do to prevent my imminent demise or maybe a violation. 2 were ex military. One was a single seat AF guy. Great guy with a great attitude, but I find it hard to believe that he survived flying by himself for the 8 years he was in. The other was an Army RW guy that was a bit on the arrogant side, and later went on to scab at EAL. The other one is pure civilian and a good guy (for a FAT ), that I enjoy flying with, but have to watch like a hawk.

 

Just for fun...

Ways to drive your mil flying partner nuts...

“The Academy huh? I know some guys who went to Comair Academy too.”

“The Viper? That’s a high wing turboprop isn’t it? Freighter?”

“Callsign huh? Neat. My nickname in my fraternity was Bartlet because I’m shaped like a pear.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

If someone is talking about their call sign to a civilian they deserve to be ridiculed

 

Call me Maverick!

 

I get really tired of the mil vs. civ threads.

The majority understand the comparison of qualifications...but keep in mind, on the line we are both here in a civilian job at the same time, right now.

There are great stories from every pilot here. I would love to know what it felt like to be supersonic at low level in an F-111, or running CAS in an A-10.

That being said, a pilot’s best qualification from either realm is to not be an a-hole. Hands down, if you are one, it’s the first thing that will kill your interview.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

Ok except that Doug Masters should know better than to race Knotcher with his flaps down.

 

It's not flight time if you have to beat the air into submission. That's dominaviating!