SWAPA early open
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 414
Did you seriously not read what was just posted about what happen to Spirit? Yes we can talk, collaborate, and educate. Just not on a public forum!! Inappropriate stuff had already been posted and recorded. If the time comes, the company will use it against the pilots.
People like you are what dooms us to failure!
People like you are what dooms us to failure!
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 414
Re-posted for your "Education"
Yup.
From the "Complaint for Injunctive Relief" filed by Spirit managment against the Spirit MEC May 8, 2017:
The complaint goes on for more than two pages quoting Spirit pilots posts from APC as evidence.
In response to the complaint, the court issued a Temporary Restraining Order enjoining Spirit pilots from engaging in any kind of concerted work action. Worse, it stopped the mediation clock and significantly reduced the danger to Spirit that their pilots could possibly get released in the foreseeable future. That dramatically decreased their leverage. It also put Spirit ALPA in danger of paying out substantial fines if their pilots continued to engage in illegal job actions.
From the "Complaint for Injunctive Relief" filed by Spirit managment against the Spirit MEC May 8, 2017:
The complaint goes on for more than two pages quoting Spirit pilots posts from APC as evidence.
Some Spirit pilots are also promoting refusing open time flying and intimidating pilots who pick up open time flying by denigrating those pilots on the Airline Pilot Central Forum (“APC”). APC is a publicly-accessible forum for pilots, generally grouped by airline, where pilots discuss a wide-range of topics pertaining to their employment, such as the currently ongoing contract negotiations. In approximately the past week, the posts on the APC Spirit blog/page have encouraged pilots to refuse open time and have begun to threaten/harass pilots who do pick up open time flying. These posts expressly tie the refusal to pick up open time to obtaining leverage in the ongoing CBA negotiations with Spirit.
#53
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
Did you seriously not read what was just posted about what happen to Spirit? Yes we can talk, collaborate, and educate. Just not on a public forum!! Inappropriate stuff had already been posted and recorded. If the time comes, the company will use it against the pilots.
People like you are what dooms us to failure!
People like you are what dooms us to failure!
That's right; because encouraging someone to not pick up open time (and harassing those who do) and encouraging work slow downs are EXACTLY the same as educating people of things like:
1) the President does NOT have the power to prevent us from striking,
and 2) a strike authorization vote has nothing to do with actually striking and can be a powerful message and tool used by us as a collective.
You got me, they're totally one and the same.
"Everybody talk...just do it in secret."
Last edited by tomgoodman; 11-15-2019 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Deleted insult
#54
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 85
I couldn’t believe it when I flew with a guy recently that said exactly this. I said I am a hard no unless we get the LTD, STD and the like fixed AND paid for by the company like our peers. He said, but what are you going to give up to get this? I said why do we have to give up anything? Sheesh.
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#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,003
I couldn’t believe it when I flew with a guy recently that said exactly this. I said I am a hard no unless we get the LTD, STD and the like fixed AND paid for by the company like our peers. He said, but what are you going to give up to get this? I said why do we have to give up anything? Sheesh.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
#57
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,582
I couldn’t believe it when I flew with a guy recently that said exactly this. I said I am a hard no unless we get the LTD, STD and the like fixed AND paid for by the company like our peers. He said, but what are you going to give up to get this? I said why do we have to give up anything? Sheesh.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
GDO, TGDO, STC, DTC restrictions on trading, exports, things like that. Perfectly willing to horse-trade those “hard-won gains.”
#58
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 33
Did you seriously not read what was just posted about what happen to Spirit? Yes we can talk, collaborate, and educate. Just not on a public forum!! Inappropriate stuff had already been posted and recorded. If the time comes, the company will use it against the pilots.
People like you are what dooms us to failure!
People like you are what dooms us to failure!
Regardless of the reason, the Spirit pilots who pushed for activities like not picking up open time and throwing spears at those who did not only demonstrated their ignorance of the RLA and/or a lack of appreciation for the consequences of doing those sorts of things in a RLA environment prior to a release to self help, but most importantly, robbed themselves of leverage and ceded bargaining power to the company.
Too bad they didn't understand the RLA before they did what they did.
Maybe if they had read posts like the ones on this thread before they shot themselves in the foot, they would have thought twice and their pilot group would have secured further gains.
Discussing the legal framework of the RLA and what that means for airline pilot group negotiations is not only not illegal, but I'd argue that it's also unwise if, for no other reason, than to avoid situations like the ones Spirit pilots found themselves in. I'd also argue that it's unwise to allow ideas to stand unchallenged like:
1) The President will never allow us to strike.
2) The mediator will just put us on ice forever.
3) The government might possibly, after a long, drawn-out process shut down a strike and that means utilizing the tools of the RLA is therefore pointless.
4) The RLA is skewed against labor.
5) Mediation and arbitration are the same thing or mediation is arbitration and arbitration is mediation.
6) The RLA process inevitably ends up in binding arbitration.
7) Entering mediation is a bad thing after a good faith, reasonable effort to come to terms in direct negotiations.
All of the above ideas cause pilot groups to believe that they lack power under the law and are at a disadvantage versus industry in obtaining their worth in negotiations. Each of the above ideas is false and demonstrably so. Shooting down the above myths with actual facts is, I believe, valuable.
The fact that the above ideas are false is absolutely no secret to management and their hired legal consultants like FordHarrison. None of the above would surprise or shock an attorney working for the side of management. None of this is news to anyone participating in negotiations on management's side. I'm quite sure they love the fact that we are still confused on the most basic of RLA issues.
The sad thing is that much of the above is news to many, if not most, pilots. Ignorance is what dooms us, not discussing the entirely legal tools available to us under the RLA.
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