SWA or ‘nah’ in 2022
06-05-2022 | 10:09 AM
#11
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 135
Likes: 16
Depends on where you are at Spirit. Already a Captain? Maybe best to wait for a legacy so you won’t be stuck in the right seat of the 73 for 10-15 years. FO? Maybe worth going to SWA but with 30 years left you could be a 777/787 etc. CA for the last 10 years of your career at UA, DAL, FedEx, UPS and AA.
06-05-2022 | 11:13 AM
#12
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,362
Likes: 141
Commuting to OAK just to move to the left seat is a tough sell. There's always going to be a split between the pilots willing to commute to weekend reserve so they can switch seats, and those who prefer QOL over having a HUD. Don't we have over 900 bypasses now? It doesn't always take an economic downturn to delay upgrade.
06-05-2022 | 12:12 PM
#13
Thread Starter
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 42
Likes: 1
I’ll give you the contrary answer that isn’t popular with some on this site. I would encourage you to come over to Southwest. Things are a little rough right now, but I think they’re rough everywhere else as well. We’re making some (albeit minor progress) with the company in negotiations. If you currently live in a Southwest Domicile, life is pretty good on reserve. Overall I think it’s a good place to work, but there are a lot of choices out there right now. So, it may or may not be for you. I will say that I think the economy is about to take a major dive that is going to put the entire Airline Industry into the red again come fall. We have tons of cash on hand, the lowest debt of any Airline in the world, and the best fuel hedging program in the industry. Going into a prolonged recession, there is no other Airline I would rather be at than this one. YMMV.
06-05-2022 | 12:31 PM
#14
Thread Starter
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 42
Likes: 1
This.
Lot's of variables to consider, but I think it comes down to this: where do you want to live? Which seniority list would you want to be at the bottom if should the music stop again?
Contract 2020 will see improvements, but no nothing is TA'd yet. I'm sure there is a backup plan being considered given the Max7 issues. The Max8 is VERY fuel efficient and we're converting all 2022 7s into 8s and deliveries are continuing as scheduled, 114 expected this year alone. I'd be surprised if we are still only operating 737s in 30 years given it's at the end of it's production road already. Oh and upgrade just dropped to 8 years and think it'll be down to 7 next year.
A good time to be looking for change! Good luck. SWA is a great job if you live in base, I'm very happy here.
Lot's of variables to consider, but I think it comes down to this: where do you want to live? Which seniority list would you want to be at the bottom if should the music stop again?
Contract 2020 will see improvements, but no nothing is TA'd yet. I'm sure there is a backup plan being considered given the Max7 issues. The Max8 is VERY fuel efficient and we're converting all 2022 7s into 8s and deliveries are continuing as scheduled, 114 expected this year alone. I'd be surprised if we are still only operating 737s in 30 years given it's at the end of it's production road already. Oh and upgrade just dropped to 8 years and think it'll be down to 7 next year.
A good time to be looking for change! Good luck. SWA is a great job if you live in base, I'm very happy here.
I live in Chicago, so Midway (SWA) & O'Hare (UAL) make a lot of sense. However, if my family ever leaves Illinois, we like Southwest's bases as a whole a lot more.
Thank you for the input and perspective -- sounds like a great gig, especially if you have to be on reserve (if you're in base, anyway).
Between, the SWA/UAL/DAL/ETC threads out there you can gain alot of insight.
Ill do my best to answer some of the stuff.
Compensation-
You can do pretty dang well here. BUT you work for it. Its rare in normal times that someone sits around on reserve, never works and collects money. Weekday reserves are used less but those go senior... on the reserve scale. You can do 120K first year. Its possible. 100K is more realistic number without working 20 days a month. Id plan on 90K if you are a "fly the line" kind of person.
The people that make the large numbers fly or credit a ton. Hustle or know the ways to make money. You can get paid a bunch here without actually doing a ton of flying if you know how to work the system. Or you can grind. Whatever works for you.
Living in base. -
Yeah no brainer there, if you live in a base that ISNT Atlanta you should have a pretty good QOL and be able to make good money. Not much to say.
Contract 2020 -
Its the same story as every airline. Past due. If we can get our rewrite, with our asks, it'll be a really solid gain. A bunch of us are pretty jaded from the last few years and the BS we see in management so we know they can pay and provide what we want, so I don't think we will settle for less. I would be amazed if we had a TA in under 2 years.
The MAX is obviously the craft that SWA has hitched their caboose. Its a decent plane and efficient... I don't see them making a change any time soon.
Love flying with the crews, 95 percent of the inflight is good and as with anywhere, use common sense and the job is easy and stress free. I am a year 3 guy, and Im gonna ride the ship as long as it floats. With hiring and having a semblance of seniority I have no desire to go elsewhere. Now if they would just make Tampa a base!
Ill do my best to answer some of the stuff.
Compensation-
You can do pretty dang well here. BUT you work for it. Its rare in normal times that someone sits around on reserve, never works and collects money. Weekday reserves are used less but those go senior... on the reserve scale. You can do 120K first year. Its possible. 100K is more realistic number without working 20 days a month. Id plan on 90K if you are a "fly the line" kind of person.
The people that make the large numbers fly or credit a ton. Hustle or know the ways to make money. You can get paid a bunch here without actually doing a ton of flying if you know how to work the system. Or you can grind. Whatever works for you.
Living in base. -
Yeah no brainer there, if you live in a base that ISNT Atlanta you should have a pretty good QOL and be able to make good money. Not much to say.
Contract 2020 -
Its the same story as every airline. Past due. If we can get our rewrite, with our asks, it'll be a really solid gain. A bunch of us are pretty jaded from the last few years and the BS we see in management so we know they can pay and provide what we want, so I don't think we will settle for less. I would be amazed if we had a TA in under 2 years.
The MAX is obviously the craft that SWA has hitched their caboose. Its a decent plane and efficient... I don't see them making a change any time soon.
Love flying with the crews, 95 percent of the inflight is good and as with anywhere, use common sense and the job is easy and stress free. I am a year 3 guy, and Im gonna ride the ship as long as it floats. With hiring and having a semblance of seniority I have no desire to go elsewhere. Now if they would just make Tampa a base!
I'd be MDW based whenever I could hold it, so ATL isn't on the table.
Year 3 going into Year 4, you're really seeing some major monetary gains, so I don't blame you for leaving in your position.
The MAX7 debacle is a win for Southwest and the pilot group.
Southwest was able to negotiate an amazing deal on the MAX7, but now since Boeing can't manage to certify the MAX7 I assume when we convert our MAX7 deliveries to MAX8s that deal carries over. Planes are still coming, 114 this year.
I would say that there is a chance that the MAX7 goes away, just as the -600 had a short life. Southwest is really the only customer who ordered the MAX7, and there are three times as many MAX10 orders spread over many airlines, and Boeing might need to focus on that variant. This could be the final push needed to drive the company to order a different aircraft, unless they want to get out of flying 140 seat aircraft. The signs are there, with the company proposing payrates for different aircraft in the contract talks. A new airplane would drive up hiring (training float) and would open up additional opportunities.
Southwest was able to negotiate an amazing deal on the MAX7, but now since Boeing can't manage to certify the MAX7 I assume when we convert our MAX7 deliveries to MAX8s that deal carries over. Planes are still coming, 114 this year.
I would say that there is a chance that the MAX7 goes away, just as the -600 had a short life. Southwest is really the only customer who ordered the MAX7, and there are three times as many MAX10 orders spread over many airlines, and Boeing might need to focus on that variant. This could be the final push needed to drive the company to order a different aircraft, unless they want to get out of flying 140 seat aircraft. The signs are there, with the company proposing payrates for different aircraft in the contract talks. A new airplane would drive up hiring (training float) and would open up additional opportunities.
Depends on where you are at Spirit. Already a Captain? Maybe best to wait for a legacy so you won’t be stuck in the right seat of the 73 for 10-15 years. FO? Maybe worth going to SWA but with 30 years left you could be a 777/787 etc. CA for the last 10 years of your career at UA, DAL, FedEx, UPS and AA.
We make more because we block more, generally in fewer days but does that matter? This needs to be properly addressed in C2020 to get my vote. New CEO says they want the deal wrapped up by the end of the year, I just hope we don’t go first this time. We are in negotiations so take this with a grain when reading online. 1,000+ pilots are about to make their displeasure heard in DAL.
SW is stable, and they stepped on their crank with the warn letters. But this last downturn saw a leveled playing field with the covid cash, think about what would’ve happened without this $$? Is this the new norm? Is a recession on the horizon? I’d be asking all these questions.
The upgrade is coming down. Max 8’s are being delivered instead of the max 7’s.
Most say the people are awesome because by and large they are awesome. Deserving of a contract that reflects we work for a very profitable and fiscally sound airline.
SW is stable, and they stepped on their crank with the warn letters. But this last downturn saw a leveled playing field with the covid cash, think about what would’ve happened without this $$? Is this the new norm? Is a recession on the horizon? I’d be asking all these questions.
The upgrade is coming down. Max 8’s are being delivered instead of the max 7’s.
Most say the people are awesome because by and large they are awesome. Deserving of a contract that reflects we work for a very profitable and fiscally sound airline.
06-05-2022 | 12:59 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 42
From: Gear slinger
I live in Chicago, so Midway (SWA) & O'Hare (UAL) make a lot of sense. However, if my family ever leaves Illinois, we like Southwest's bases as a whole a lot more.
Thank you for the input and perspective -- sounds like a great gig, especially if you have to be on reserve (if you're in base, anyway).
I'd be MDW based whenever I could hold it, so ATL isn't on the table.
Year 3 going into Year 4, you're really seeing some major monetary gains, so I don't blame you for leaving in your position.
First Officer with just a few years invested. Interesting point about career progression, particularly in the last 20 years ... which isn't a small consideration.
Live in Chicago? Take the SWA job and then leave from there if you decide you don’t like it.. Frontier has shown a willingness to close the ORD base on the F9 side. Who knows if it’ll stay with the Spirit purchase. If JetBlue buys Spirit any base away from the coast is at risk.
SWA and UAL most likely won’t be leaving Chicago.
06-05-2022 | 04:16 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
I'm usually one to point out the negatives of SWA. However, given the precarious state of the economy right now - catalyzed largely by the global fiscal and monetary response to covid-19, supply chain issues, and the geopolitical situation (Ukraine and an increasingly aggressive China) - I think SWA is, by far, the safest place to be of the major airlines for reason already pointed out in this thread. SWA has plenty of downsides like flying one aircraft type for decades, longer upgrade, working much harder for your money than peers at other airlines, and an industry-lagging contract in terms of retirement, disability, and many other benefits. However, if the economy implodes, and it seems like we are at much higher risk for that sort of thing than any time I can really remember in my adult life, then SWA is a good place to be. That factor has to be weighted heavily IMO.
06-05-2022 | 04:50 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 125
From: Left
Depends on where you are at Spirit. Already a Captain? Maybe best to wait for a legacy so you won’t be stuck in the right seat of the 73 for 10-15 years. FO? Maybe worth going to SWA but with 30 years left you could be a 777/787 etc. CA for the last 10 years of your career at UA, DAL, FedEx, UPS and AA.
I would not bet on AA being around in 30 years. AA is banking on the too big to fail theory.
06-05-2022 | 08:06 PM
#18
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 184
Likes: 12
There was a group of us that came through the regional ranks together. Some commute, some live in base. We all ended up in different places, including Delta, United, Southwest and FedEx. Without hesitation, I can tell you that the happiest of the group are at FedEx and SWA. The happiest of those live in base.
Despite our issues (and we certainly have some), you can make a bunch of money here. Personally, I never had a year under a $100k, hit $200k in year 3, and am going to be bumping up against $300k in year 6, but probably won’t break it. Straight up, I work my schedule and the contract hard. I only pick up Premium and only in base. I have never had less that 12 days off and not more than 14 (except vacation months).
The big “out a smile on my face” things for me at SWA is living in base, the pilot group, and being able to have a PM schedule.
1. Living in base is critical to making big money here (and likely at most airlines). You will love your life and your loved ones will love you more if you live in base. Do NOT consider any airline if you have to commute and have an alternative option for living in base.
2. Our pilot group is by far the best based upon the comments I get from my friends at the above mentioned carriers. I don’t know what the secret sauce is in the interview process is, but it really does work. I am in year six and have only three guys I would prefer not to fly with.
3. The AM/PM option is incredible for me. We have a lot more AMer’s than PMer’s. That allows me a much better shot on premium trips on short notice (once again - also because I live in base). I did not know AM/PM choice existed until I was in class. I was like whoa, you mean I don’t have to show up to work until 11:00? I’m in!!
Any of your options, including staying put, sound as though they will allow you to have a good life. With that said, make your best choice and don’t look back. You probably won’t know if you made the best choice until the day you retire.
Despite our issues (and we certainly have some), you can make a bunch of money here. Personally, I never had a year under a $100k, hit $200k in year 3, and am going to be bumping up against $300k in year 6, but probably won’t break it. Straight up, I work my schedule and the contract hard. I only pick up Premium and only in base. I have never had less that 12 days off and not more than 14 (except vacation months).
The big “out a smile on my face” things for me at SWA is living in base, the pilot group, and being able to have a PM schedule.
1. Living in base is critical to making big money here (and likely at most airlines). You will love your life and your loved ones will love you more if you live in base. Do NOT consider any airline if you have to commute and have an alternative option for living in base.
2. Our pilot group is by far the best based upon the comments I get from my friends at the above mentioned carriers. I don’t know what the secret sauce is in the interview process is, but it really does work. I am in year six and have only three guys I would prefer not to fly with.
3. The AM/PM option is incredible for me. We have a lot more AMer’s than PMer’s. That allows me a much better shot on premium trips on short notice (once again - also because I live in base). I did not know AM/PM choice existed until I was in class. I was like whoa, you mean I don’t have to show up to work until 11:00? I’m in!!
Any of your options, including staying put, sound as though they will allow you to have a good life. With that said, make your best choice and don’t look back. You probably won’t know if you made the best choice until the day you retire.
06-06-2022 | 12:21 AM
#19
— No Relief On Scope —
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,484
Likes: 265
From: B737 Left Seat
Pretty good post. I’m on year 7, and have generally had a good run (but I was on the front to peak of the last hiring wave for once).
I will definitely vouch for the quality of our pilots and the PM option. I don’t technically live in base but drive just under two hours which still offers some premium flying opportunities but not like being within 30 minutes let’s say.
Upgrade times are coming down (fingers crossed the economy doesn’t tank) which is fine, but we do have work to do with the contract.
Yes, you can make money, but we can also capitalize on vacation time as I do. I usually turn one week into three.
You can work the system or easily fly your line and make 100 TFP per month without any extra work.
I will definitely vouch for the quality of our pilots and the PM option. I don’t technically live in base but drive just under two hours which still offers some premium flying opportunities but not like being within 30 minutes let’s say.
Upgrade times are coming down (fingers crossed the economy doesn’t tank) which is fine, but we do have work to do with the contract.
Yes, you can make money, but we can also capitalize on vacation time as I do. I usually turn one week into three.
You can work the system or easily fly your line and make 100 TFP per month without any extra work.
06-06-2022 | 04:22 AM
#20
New Hire
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Not to hack the OP's thread but curious of anyone's thoughts.
I'm one of those that's fortunate to have a few offers on the table (as are many others in this current environment). Got a CJO from Delta but I'm being heavily metered for my class date. Got a CJO from FedEx and I like everything I've seen so far with them and have dug around looking for anyone who personally wasn't happy there (hard to find). Class will be coming up pretty soon for Purple. Just got the invite for SWA and funny thing is I live 20 minutes from an SWA domicile. Even if I did get the CJO it would be a while before I got a class date I'm thinking (again that's if I got hired).
I've heard all the positives and negatives of both companies, trying to think what is best in the long term. I'm single and no real attachments other than most of my family lives close by. I like the prospects of cargo but SWA has been my hometown airline and I've always admired the culture there but am open to cargo as well.
Appreciate any current WN guys giving their 2 cents. Probably is just going to come down to personal preference. Thanks.
I'm one of those that's fortunate to have a few offers on the table (as are many others in this current environment). Got a CJO from Delta but I'm being heavily metered for my class date. Got a CJO from FedEx and I like everything I've seen so far with them and have dug around looking for anyone who personally wasn't happy there (hard to find). Class will be coming up pretty soon for Purple. Just got the invite for SWA and funny thing is I live 20 minutes from an SWA domicile. Even if I did get the CJO it would be a while before I got a class date I'm thinking (again that's if I got hired).
I've heard all the positives and negatives of both companies, trying to think what is best in the long term. I'm single and no real attachments other than most of my family lives close by. I like the prospects of cargo but SWA has been my hometown airline and I've always admired the culture there but am open to cargo as well.
Appreciate any current WN guys giving their 2 cents. Probably is just going to come down to personal preference. Thanks.
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