Thank you for rewording exactly what I said. Not sure why you did, but I said "there's no way to say what would have happened at Southwest...", because there isn't. Nothing happened other than WARN notices being sent out, dated way in the future. Before we even got to the date of the WARN notices premium was flowing and JA's were happening, so the gig was up. It believe it was obvious in my post that everything after WARN notices being sent out was an opinion. I doubt you will find a Southwest pilot who will seriously say that the WARN notices would have been followed by furlough notices. This in no way excuses management from what they did, it was still 100% wrong.

There's quite a bit of complaining on APC which needs to put in context. Southwest was the place to be for the period spanning 2001 - 2008. I interviewed at a "legacy" in 2008 and pay started at $30k and benefits didn't start for six months. I was just hoping to get the 737 type out of them so I could be more competitive for Southwest, because that was the way things were back then. My big fear at the time was being so junior as to be assigned the 777. Due to 2008 recession that position never happened and the furloughs started again at the legacies in earnest.

These days, Southwest probably isn't #1 for most applicants. However, make no mistake, it's still a pretty decent job. I've looked extensively at going elsewhere, but I'd be giving up total compensation, schedule flexibility, value of vacation, and have to accept PBS. Southwest no doubt will get a contract with Delta rates and full retro and in comparison to my friends at Delta and United, I make more for the same days worked. That's said, that takes some work with conflict bidding vacation/monthly overlap, looking for trips to put back together, etc. If you are a "fly your line" type of person, you'd likely be better off elsewhere. Southwest also has the strongest balance sheet out of the 4 airlines that carry the majority of US passengers and isn't going anywhere soon.

 

I have been here a short time so take what I say with a grain of salt. I have also looked around because I too am often checking to see if the grass is greener.

1. I initially bought into the Koolaid, but I have come back to reality a bit on that. Dont get me wrong, the training department does their job very well in regards to this and you certainly feel like you have just found the perfect home. While the reality of this often comes to an end fairly quickly once out on the line, it really doesn't change that the people you work with on the line generally are awesome. Fun crews to fly with for sure.
2. Having a 3on 4off line my second month here with 17 days off and only 8 nights away from home was amazing, especially compared to the places I had come from. Nothing against them, just it is nice to have all those extra days off. However, you pay for those days off with high workload trips. I am genuinely tired after a day here, especially if you get one with 4 turns in California or something. It's busy but efficient.
3. I feel way to much emphasis is put on the 737. Sure it's old and not as comfy as the 320, but it is fun to fly and is a workhorse. As someone that has flown E175/A320 and now the 737, I find they all suck at the end of a long day. Would it be cool to fly a WB, sure thing, is it cool enough to give up all the other benefits I get, I dont think I am there yet.
4. AM/PM schedules and general flexibility with your schedule is great. I hate PM flying and will take an early wake up anyway, however for those that like it the other way, that option exists. Being able to move your trips around assuming you can properly manage ELLITT and all of our other options is also a big bonus.
5. Our Regular plan for insurance is second to none in my opinion and as far as I know, we are the only ones that have it. It costs $0, has a $250 deductible and then goes to 80/20. If you ever hit $2500 in a year as a family it starts paying at 100%. Its has some quirks to work around and I dont think its great for people wanting kids, but once that part of your life is over it essentially saves be $6000 a year in paycheck deductions.

Just some ramblings off the top of my head, hope it helps. I am happy here for the most part, but like any airline the management sucks and there are things that I would love to change, but that's ever shop. Good luck to you either way.

PS. Just doing an edit for prosperity, but I live in base, have a short drive and my kids are all in college at this point, so my experience may be different than someone else's.

 

One quick thing: a lot of people have mentioned days off/work harder but on fewer days/etc.

That's definitely true, but with the inefficiencies these days I've noticed that it's taking md more and more time to recover after every trip. It's all well and good to have 17-18 days off vs. 14-15 days off, because those extra few can't be discounted, but when you're so dog tired after every single trip of 12+ hour duty days and 11 hour overnights, it really does start to affect your days at home.

Your first day back after a pm where you get in at 3am every day, or that last day before going to work to wake up every day at 3am, severely impacts your time at home. If you have kids, it's hard to get back on their schedule when you have to keep your circadian rhythm at least somewhat close to your work schedule so that you don't work yourself into an early grave. As an am guy, I used to bounce back after getting home around 2pm on day 3 by the next morning. Because our ams are getting back close to 5-7pm now, my first day back is now the next day, for which I am generally wrecked. And my last day off, I have to be in bed by 6 to try to get to sleep by 7 for my 3am wakeup call on day 1, which definitely puts a damper on family time after school that day.

A 3 day still isn't quite as bad as a 4 day, but it's also not what it used to be. I definitely wouldn't say it's cut and dry that the 2-3 extra days at home that you get at swa are black and white 2-3 extra days at home. I do wonder just how much better our system is over the 4 day 4 leg trips they have at the big 3. I could get all my YouTube and TV watching out of my system on my overnights rather than getting distracted by that stuff at home. Maybe that's just the entitled millennial in me.

 

All of this is fair, I will ask though are you a commuter? I ask only because everything I typed above was from the standpoint that I drive about 25 min to work and my kids are all older, so whomever reads what I wrote above please keep that in mind.

 

I drive 45 minutes to work. Combined with 15-30 minutes for the shuttle to or from the parking lot I don't think I have a hard drive to work. Not as good as 25 minutes and not as bad a commuting any time in the air, but definitely a drag after a 12+hour duty day where you woke up at 3am.

My kids are young, and of course all this will go out the window when I have to start commuting to upgrade shortly.

 

If it goes bad SWA is in the worst position. We have no retirements (10 a month). If you are losing 10% a year off the top a furlough can be accomplished with a hiring freeze.

 

I can’t emphasize enough what a big deal this is in my experience. I am t-i-i-i-red (said with emphasis and with two syllables) after just about any trip I fly at SWA. And the being tired thing seems, for me, to function on somewhat of a Richter Scale of fatigue - a 4-day at SWA is around about twice as fatiguing as a SWA three-day, a SWA three-day is twice as fatiguing as a SWA two-day, and a SWA two-day is twice as fatiguing as a SWA turn. And most of the turns I fly are pretty fatiguing.

So, like waterski explained, when I get back from a trip, especially if it was a three-day or longer, I’m walking around like a zombie for at least the first day of my days off. Often, that period stretches into the second day off after a trip. Ergo, for me, it’s not like all of my days off are quality days off. About one-third to one-half of my days off are kinda like cotton candy in terms of nutritional value.

I’m senior and live in base, about 25 minutes from the airport. Maybe my tiredness is a function of getting older because some of the guys here on APC say their trips aren’t fatiguing at all, they haven’t flown more than a nine-hour duty day in months, and all of their overnights are at least 19 hours long.

They seem to live in a sort of Lake Wobegon, alternate reality version of SWA (where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average…).

In the parallel universe iteration of SWA that I inhabit, most days are four legs, the overwhelming majority of duty days exceed ten hours, and overnights typically hover around 13 hours or less. That’s my reality.

YMMV.

 

DAL and DALPA came to an agreement that instead of furloughs, pilots would get paid 30 hrs a month in the lowest paying category (plus lots of other gains). Because of cares act extensions, that never had to happen. All pilots below the furlough line were paid reserve min at the 717 rate.

 

FriendlyGoodGood?

I think if I can summarize the griping that your question set in motion, SWA can no longer hang its hat on treating employees better than anyone else. But that’s different than claiming you’ll be definitively treated better at AAL. I think SWA has regressed closer to the mean.

Since you’re asking about stability during a worst-case industry scenario though, don’t forget to consider long term obligations. AAL ended ‘22 with around $34B debt/$12B cash on hand, SWA with $8B debt/$13B cash on hand. From your own conclusion about those figures cause I’m not arrogant enough to say I know for sure. Were government bailouts during covid a new norm, or the exception? If it’s the latter then some might claim AAL is a more precarious position in a real worst-case scenario. If it’s the former then yeah, let fleet types, upgrade times, schedule flexibility, etc. be your guide.

 

Niceeeeee,


And I appreciate it- you at SWA? I’ve always been a better safe than sorry kinda guy.