DL TA career earnings >$4.4M more than SWA
02-28-2023, 03:56 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,127
Originally Posted by flyguy81
WB numbers can’t really be compared since we don’t have any. It’s an option elsewhere, sure… it people aren’t leaving here in droves to go fly them…so I don’t think it’s much of a carrot.
I think if we are to compare ourselves to OAL’s it should be at the largest NB rate they fly (757), which would put us above all the other LCC’s. If and when we get WB’s (look at WestJet….could happen)…then we me-too the already established rates at the OAL’s.
Career earnings are what new hires compare when selecting an airline. The aircraft doesn’t matter….. just the money.
UPS has one payrate, and they are king of the mountain.
Career earnings…. focus on what is important.
.
02-28-2023, 04:12 AM
#12
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Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Profane Kahuna
NO…….
Career earnings are what new hires compare when selecting an airline. The aircraft doesn’t matter….. just the money.
UPS has one payrate, and they are king of the mountain.
Career earnings…. focus on what is important.
.
Career earnings are what new hires compare when selecting an airline. The aircraft doesn’t matter….. just the money.
UPS has one payrate, and they are king of the mountain.
Career earnings…. focus on what is important.
.
02-28-2023, 04:21 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 856
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
In your opinion, what upgrade timeframe should we use for DL to make the comparison?
02-28-2023, 06:04 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,871
Originally Posted by Profane Kahuna
NO…….
Career earnings are what new hires compare when selecting an airline. The aircraft doesn’t matter….. just the money.
UPS has one payrate, and they are king of the mountain.
Career earnings…. focus on what is important.
.
Career earnings are what new hires compare when selecting an airline. The aircraft doesn’t matter….. just the money.
UPS has one payrate, and they are king of the mountain.
Career earnings…. focus on what is important.
.
SWAPA likes to say everything is data driven. I want to see the data at OAL’s. You can certainly do best case/worst case but I think the dollar totals will be so far apart it’d be hard to figure the average.
02-28-2023, 06:10 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,871
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
We've got guys here hired pre-2007, 2008 who are still FO's by choice. As a result of FO's bypassing CA upgrade here at SWA (the people, I guess, who "should" be bidding it), we also have some of the same sort of artificial seniority that you're describing at Delta. The fact is, at Delta, despite whatever drawbacks there are to it, and the fact that some Delta FO's that "should" be bidding it aren't, the six-month upgrades on the 767 are getting filled by pilots willing to do it. Same here.
Some of our bypassing FO's want nothing to do with CA upgrade if it means commuting or sitting reserve or flying four-days or flying three-days or whatever. CA upgrade at SWA isn't appealing enough for some of our FO's to compel them to make the leap. But it is compelling enough for some of our other FO's to make the leap as soon as they possibly can despite all of the downsides to doing so. Just like at Delta. Isn't it like that at pretty much every airline without a forced upgrade?
What upgrade time are you suggesting we use for DL and what upgrade time are you suggesting we should use for SWA besides the actual earliest available upgrade times to arrive at a comparison that you consider fair? And how are you arriving at those times?
And now, for the far more important issue. WHY do you think it's a pipe dream to achieve DL or better career compensation and industry-leading benefits and work rules? That's a critical question. It goes to the heart of why we have, overall, an industry-lagging contract.
What holds us back from achieving career pay and retirement better than DL's? What holds us back from achieving industry-leading work rules and benefits?
It's definitely not the RLA. The RLA does not, in any way, require us to limit ourselves to NB-only demands. Again, read this for a primer on why that is so. If you think I'm missing something on that issue, I'm all ears.
So, what is it that's holding us back? Is it the pilot group? Is it SWAPA? Is it that, strategically, for pattern bargaining's sake, we don't want the best career compensation, retirement, work rules, and benefits (I had a former "SWAPA 1.0" VP on my JS who made that claim)? Is it that we don't know how to achieve it? Is it that the company won't agree to it? Is it that we don't understand the economic power or "weapons" available to us? Is it that it's too hard or will take too long? Is it Bob Jordan or Carl Kuwitzky?
What exactly is standing in our way?
Some of our bypassing FO's want nothing to do with CA upgrade if it means commuting or sitting reserve or flying four-days or flying three-days or whatever. CA upgrade at SWA isn't appealing enough for some of our FO's to compel them to make the leap. But it is compelling enough for some of our other FO's to make the leap as soon as they possibly can despite all of the downsides to doing so. Just like at Delta. Isn't it like that at pretty much every airline without a forced upgrade?
What upgrade time are you suggesting we use for DL and what upgrade time are you suggesting we should use for SWA besides the actual earliest available upgrade times to arrive at a comparison that you consider fair? And how are you arriving at those times?
And now, for the far more important issue. WHY do you think it's a pipe dream to achieve DL or better career compensation and industry-leading benefits and work rules? That's a critical question. It goes to the heart of why we have, overall, an industry-lagging contract.
What holds us back from achieving career pay and retirement better than DL's? What holds us back from achieving industry-leading work rules and benefits?
It's definitely not the RLA. The RLA does not, in any way, require us to limit ourselves to NB-only demands. Again, read this for a primer on why that is so. If you think I'm missing something on that issue, I'm all ears.
So, what is it that's holding us back? Is it the pilot group? Is it SWAPA? Is it that, strategically, for pattern bargaining's sake, we don't want the best career compensation, retirement, work rules, and benefits (I had a former "SWAPA 1.0" VP on my JS who made that claim)? Is it that we don't know how to achieve it? Is it that the company won't agree to it? Is it that we don't understand the economic power or "weapons" available to us? Is it that it's too hard or will take too long? Is it Bob Jordan or Carl Kuwitzky?
What exactly is standing in our way?
I think at that point the company and union would say, “this is the best we can do” and it’d get voted in like C2016. Would the mediator look at us like we had 3 heads if CK and BJ walked in and said yea to everything we’re asking and we said, “that was the offer 20 sec ago. Times have changed and we want $400/hr now”?
I’ve flown with enough people the last 3 years to know that 777 pay isn’t even on the radar. People want disability, paid parking, scheduling language, better rsv rules, more NEC and pay rates to match what everyone else is getting. We get that, you won’t get 50+1% to vote no for WB rates.
People will be boat shopping the second the TA hits (if it’s worth a damn or not)….just being realistic.
02-28-2023, 06:13 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Dec 2011
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by Brickfire
The reason a delta new hire can upgrade at 6 months is nobody wants it.
If you want an apples to apples comparison it’s a year of new hires tracked for a career. Some upgrade immediately and sit weekend reserve for 10 years. Most dont.
If you want an apples to apples comparison it’s a year of new hires tracked for a career. Some upgrade immediately and sit weekend reserve for 10 years. Most dont.
02-28-2023, 06:40 AM
#17
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,689
Why do we want to base pay off of aircraft?
I think it should be base off of risk. Risk is based off of productivity, block hrs, and landings.
Sw is the most productive group in the industry regardless of aircraft. Why should sw pilots be paid based off others airlines pay when they are not as productive/risk?
sw pilots being the most productive also make the most revenue for the airline. Therefore, it doesnt matter what they fly they should get paid the most since they make the most money for the company.
I dont think sw should limit themselves to aircraft type.
I think it should be base off of risk. Risk is based off of productivity, block hrs, and landings.
Sw is the most productive group in the industry regardless of aircraft. Why should sw pilots be paid based off others airlines pay when they are not as productive/risk?
sw pilots being the most productive also make the most revenue for the airline. Therefore, it doesnt matter what they fly they should get paid the most since they make the most money for the company.
I dont think sw should limit themselves to aircraft type.
02-28-2023, 06:46 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
Career earnings should interest us all and that's how we should approach our own negotiations.
The "we don't have widebodies" argument was old decades ago, and it's one of the reasons that our contracts have (almost) always lagged the industry.
In this hiring environment, folks have the luxury of taking the huge career earning and QOL disparities into consideration when making their career airline choice.
I ran into 2 folks on the interview team last week at AQP last week, and the future looks pretty grim here. The number of experienced folks applying, showing up for interviews and class dates has been pretty bleak the last few months.
Anecdotally, a kid I've been mentoring for the last 5 years, who has been gung ho about coming to SW, has finally got the minimums to get hired here.
I teed up a consultation for him with a guy on the interview team last week, and after a few days, he sheepishly told me that he was no longer interested in SW, and that he was gonna stay at his regional until he could get to someplace better.
He'd be taking a significant pay cut coming here, coupled with our industry lagging narrow body contract, not to mention the complete goatrope our operation has become, I don't blame him in the least.
IMHO, getting out of the regionals should be his first priority, but this is where we are at right now.
Last edited by SlipKid; 02-28-2023 at 06:58 AM.
02-28-2023, 07:01 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,127
Originally Posted by flyguy81
I guess my point is that trying to quantify career earning at a place like Delta with so many moving parts is very nearly impossible. The best you could do is sit down with their MEC or NC and figure out the average upgrade time progression from NH to geezer. Do most go NB FO to NB CA to WB CA? Where does WB FO fit in and at what timeframe? How many never bid WB?
SWAPA likes to say everything is data driven. I want to see the data at OAL’s. You can certainly do best case/worst case but I think the dollar totals will be so far apart it’d be hard to figure the average.
SWAPA likes to say everything is data driven. I want to see the data at OAL’s. You can certainly do best case/worst case but I think the dollar totals will be so far apart it’d be hard to figure the average.
If you need simplicity, negotiate for UPS rates…. they all get paid the same no matter what aircraft.
Career earnings are what matter and what we should be targeting during negotiations,
.
02-28-2023, 07:31 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2022
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
A SWA pilot on our existing contract's rates, if they upgraded at 7.5 years, could equal a DL pilot's career earnings under their new TA rates by flying an average of 152 TFP every month for 30 years.
None of the above is to justify a subpar contract. I see hitting top industry 757 rates after their snap ups and industry NEC as a minimum but not necessarily sufficient bar for a yes vote.
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