Grease5667

Go to Delta, then put in your app at AA. Not commuting is a massive factor. This used to be a phenomenal place to work. We are now under attack from a management that, to be gentle and not use nasty words, hates this pilot group and most frontline workers. They apparently continue to lie to new hires regarding upgrades, basing, and potential pay. Just scratches the surface. The trips used to be efficient but enjoyable. It has turned into a sweatshop.

SlipKid

Absolutely.

Don't let your desire to live where you think you want to live for the rest of your life cloud your judgement WRT earnings and QOL over a 40(!) year career.

SW is, has always been and will likely always be a somewhat glorified regional, although that line has blurred significantly in the last few years and not because our situation got any better.

Comparing a career here vs. a legacy is apples and oranges.

Yes, we'll probably do OK on this contract, but it is very unlikely that we will ever offer anywhere close to the same career/retirement earnings and QOL of a legacy, when viewed in the long term.

I am near the top of the food chain, seniority wise, and I am flying significantly worse schedules at SW today than when I got hired nearly 3 decades ago, heck, even a decade ago.

It's unlikely to get significantly better, and that's assuming we don't go the way of Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Eastern etc., which, nowadays, doesn't seem as far fetched as it did a decade ago. Having worked directly and indirectly for 3 out of 4 of those, I can say without hesitation that some of the stuff that's been happening the last few years feels eerily similar.

Yeah, our balance sheet is strong now, but how many more $1b meltdowns can that endure? 6 months after the latest one, they've done little to nothing to prevent it from happening again. In fact, after seeing that they've removed nearly 900, (otherwise available to work) pilot's from the June sched by moving their training into June(!) (which leaves, potentially, close to 4000 days of now uncovered flying), it almost seems as if they're intentionally trying to cause another epic meltdown, and that's just one example.

The differences between being junior and senior at SW are, in a nutshell:

Seat/domicile choice.

More variety when getting to choose which/how many days you get pummeled by the sodomizer.

Vacation bidding (although "we" voted to remove 60% of a senior pilot's first round vacation choice, which will further dilute the few benefits we get by being senior at SW if and when it gets implemented).

Oh, and as a senior pilot, you will be in a better position to pick up open time. That's a good thing, since you'll have to pick up more and more days of flying if you want to keep up with your contemporaries at DAL as you, and they, get more senior.

Our scheduling flexibility, which is actually pretty good, also allows a senior pilot to minimize their exposure to the vortex, or to go all in and make bank. Either will cost you, one way or another.

All this could and will likely change in the future, but I wouldn't bet too much on it.

jrydel

Currently at SW with a CJO at DL. Live in Denver, 28, will eventually be married with kids. I love Colorado, and I refuse to commute. If I took the DL job I’d move back to SoCal where my family is. I really value the QOL and flexibility that Southwest gives me, but I love the variety and options I would have at DL. Seniority wise, WN is astronomically better. I will be 25% at WN when I hit 50% at DL. I’ll spend the last 15ish years of my career in the top 10% at WN.
I think I’m feeling a lot of peer pressure to leave since nearly all my friends at WN have left in the last year for legacies. My family and SO support either job, I’ve talked to many people at both airlines, and I’m really not sure what to do. Am I an idiot to stay at Southwest with such an incredible job opportunity on the table?

WHACKMASTER

Yes. Yes you 🤬ing are. Move to GJT and drive to SLC? Commute to the WB gig in LAX? Just get out of this ridiculous company. What about UAL in DEN?

Lewbronski

I don't know how long you've been at SWA. Let's say one year.

Let's say you go to Delta. I don't know how long you're talking about to make it to 50% on the DL list, but for argument's sake, let's say 20 years. You'll be 48.

At Delta, in 20 years, if you start on the 737-800/700 fleet and upgrade in four years to captain on the 737-800/700 and then upgrade at 19 years to a 777, you'll have made a total of $6.8M under today's contract. Obviously, you'll get another contract or two by then, but it's the best info we have right now. DL's profit sharing has also been better than SWA's and their retirement is better than SWA's. That's not even mentioning their better work rules and disability and pass privileges and on and on.

At SWA, in 20 years, let's assume you'll upgrade 5.5 years from now (at the 6.5 year point). In twenty years, under today's contract, you'll have made a total of $4.87M. Yes, SWA will also get a new contract or two in the next twenty years. Who knows how they'll turn out? And, given current trajectory, who knows if SWA will still be around in 20 years?

That's a difference of $1.9M, not including the better retirement and PS at DL. I know state income taxes are higher in CA (I assume?) but probably nowhere near $1.9M more than you'd pay by staying in Colorado.

Also, what are the chances of SWA getting a new jet in the next twenty years? Maybe we'll just be starting to get whatever replaces the 737 at around 20 years from now, but I wouldn't necessarily count on it. If you stay at SWA, there's no end to the regional-style flying. There's no chance to switch to a different fleet if you get sick of it. You're only 28. It's extremely difficult for a guy your age to extrapolate out how mind-numbingly boring and exhausting, both mentally and physically, that may become as you age. I'm actually glad now that I've been at SWA for about 20 years that I didn't start here in my 20's. I was able to fly in the military and do some pretty cool stuff before this. I can't imagine if this kind of airline flying had been my entire flying career. Barf.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Vettekid

My opinion as an outsider:

I also had offers at SWA, DL, Allegiant, Breeze and Avelo. Im coming to SWA. The negative commentors all seem to jthrough out the earnings difference right away. And if your goal in life is to see how much money you can amass, the sure, go with Delta. However, I would argue that is pretty short sighted and ignores the fact that even at SWA you will make more than the vast majority of the American public. Yes, I feel im worth that, as I put in a lot of time and hard work to get here and as pilots we assume a large amount of risk and responsability (thats why I will support the union and will happily strike day one on the line if it comes to it). Having said that, SWA offered the best shcedule flexability, job stability and pay in a location where I want to be without commuting for the rest of my life (which would severly diminish QOL even with better work rules). That and I am confident that we will get a good contract in the relatively near future that will be more than enough to provide a very comfortable life for my family and fairly compensate me for my experience and expertise. I also felt a very stuffy, corperate culture at Delta that I just didnt fit in with. I have friends there, but most of them honestly arent REALLY there as they are on Mil leave for reserves more than they are at Delta. So their experiences are very different (commuting a few times every 6 months is a far cry from doing it weekly).

Go with the airline that offers the best combination of elements important to you. Its unlikely that any one airline will hit ALL of your requirements exactly, and they all have their own plusses and minuses. For me it was between Avelo and SWA. No union at Avelo and future uncertainty were the deal breakers and why I chose SWA in the end (Breeze isnt where I want to be, Allegiant is a hot mess with terrible pay and rules and Delta isnt where I want to be and didnt feel like a good fit...yes it matters).

Just my $.02 as someone getting ready to start.

nene

Living in a base is the major driver (IMO after reading your comments) and probably a great driver of your decision. Two things to consider though that you did not address if your were willing to move to a DL base:

Variety: Over a 20yr career at DL you can fly as an FO to the 'villes for awhile, then you can bid WB B flying and spend some time exploring each of the major cities in Europe/SA/Asia, then you can bid back to NB A and re-explore the good ole USA and nearby countries, and lastly you can go back to WB A. Anyway, over the course of a career there is an opportunity to keep it all fresh. If your thing is to never leave east/west of the Mississippi, you can engineer that. If your thing is to never go to work and bid reserve WB B and mostly stay home, you can engineer that. Best of all, you can upgrade earlier just because of the wide varieties of opportunities and positions dilutes the amount of pilots on accepting first available upgrade (or ever upgrading). You didn't state your age, so if you only have a few years left, then perhaps a career flying the mighty 737 around the US will not get old.

Lastly, you claim you "didn't feel like a good fit", well I have friends at all the airlines that I served with in the Navy and the airlines are waaaaay more similar than different. At the end of the day, if you can get along with others generally then you'll fit in for a few days with any crew. If you find that everyone else is an arse, well often you have to look inward to find the common denominator...

Best of luck on your new career!

Otterbox

Honestly, I’d just go to United in this case. If you app has been in for a while at SWA, adding Delta to make it more appealing depending on how willing I was to roll dice. I wouldn’t want to commute for a lifetime or be forced to move over wearing a hat and flying an airbus though.

GearUpHeadDown

Agreed. If he was over 40ish, I’d think staying would be a good choice because of the security. There will be furloughs in the next 20 years and it’s a slow climb up the DL seniority list these days. United has a go big or go BK mentality, but you’ll have more movement there if they succeed.

Vettekid

Im 43, but dont plan on working forever! Ive flown all over the world in a variety of airplanes already, Im good there. I love the good ol US of A and happy to fly here. As for variety of aircraft, its not really a consideration for me. As I said, Ive flown a variety of aircraft in a variety of locations and circumstances. Im confident ill be happy in the 737. I enjoy staying with one aircraft and getting really good at that one. The most fun flying ive done was in a Caravan or a Cub. Not going to do that kind of flying in any heavy!