AirTran MEC Rejects SLI proposal
08-18-2011, 04:28 PM
#61
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 531
SWA pilots, I just don't understand why you are so against a relative seniority list integration when you gain 140 more aircraft. You still hold the same relative position and pay on your aircraft, your quality of life does not change. These AirTran folks operate essentially the exact same equipment, what is the problem? Is the problem that you are simply jealous of the fact that the AirTran folks get a raise or that a 5 year AirTran guy is now relative to a 9 year SWA guy? I mean once you get past the jealousy has your quality of life or pay really changed in any way?
Please help me understand the issue with relative integration. I always hear this argument of, what do we (SWA pilots) get out of the deal. Guess what, you get a more healthy airline with more access to Business Travelers and International Routes, premium slots at ATL, LGA, DCA and you just eliminated a major competitor. Why do you "have" to get anything out of the deal? Just ask for more money during your next negotiations because you allowed a smooth SLI.
Please help me understand the issue with relative integration. I always hear this argument of, what do we (SWA pilots) get out of the deal. Guess what, you get a more healthy airline with more access to Business Travelers and International Routes, premium slots at ATL, LGA, DCA and you just eliminated a major competitor. Why do you "have" to get anything out of the deal? Just ask for more money during your next negotiations because you allowed a smooth SLI.
08-18-2011, 04:44 PM
#62
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by JDFlyer
The comedians are out in force tonight. Ha ha!!
So lets go down this little thought experiment path . . . . . Delta management, for some unknown reason decides to purchase one or more of the many Delta/ALPA/Feed carriers.
Those pilots do the same work many of the Delta mainline pilots do. They fly the same routes, carry the same passengers, assume the same level of responsibility every time they strap that seat to their butt. Most importantly, they are even the same union - ALPA.
Before you beat me to the punch line, I know what you are going to say - they are EQUAL to Delta pilots. They are fellow aviators with the same skills, same responsibility, and even the same union.
I just know you and all your socialist comrades at Delta would welcome them with open arms, give them the same relative seniority, pay and benefits, . . . . . after all they are fellow, EQUAL pilots.
Humans are ALL equal, yes, in a fundamental, philosophical sense . . . . after that it is just business in the American, capitalist, free market sense - well, until ALPA gets involved.
So lets go down this little thought experiment path . . . . . Delta management, for some unknown reason decides to purchase one or more of the many Delta/ALPA/Feed carriers.
Those pilots do the same work many of the Delta mainline pilots do. They fly the same routes, carry the same passengers, assume the same level of responsibility every time they strap that seat to their butt. Most importantly, they are even the same union - ALPA.
Before you beat me to the punch line, I know what you are going to say - they are EQUAL to Delta pilots. They are fellow aviators with the same skills, same responsibility, and even the same union.
I just know you and all your socialist comrades at Delta would welcome them with open arms, give them the same relative seniority, pay and benefits, . . . . . after all they are fellow, EQUAL pilots.
Humans are ALL equal, yes, in a fundamental, philosophical sense . . . . after that it is just business in the American, capitalist, free market sense - well, until ALPA gets involved.
hmmm... a DAL-AirTran merger, how would the SLI go?
Gosh, can anyone hold Captain hired after 1993?
Let me go see what the numbers are...
Okay. AirTran has 1,742 pilots. Just in Atlanta Delta has 3,767 pilots. Only 6 Delta's 269 B737 Captains and 114 of Delta's 478 MD-88 pilots were hired after 1993.
Or put it another way, 93% of the Atlanta based Captains and 54% of all Atlanta pilots at Delta were hired before Valujet was created.
I say all that just because I was curious how many DAL pilots were hired after 1993. And I ain't counting the whole list. So I just did ATL.
08-18-2011, 04:56 PM
#63
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
I've quite accurately called how each arbitration in recent times was going to go down, just so you know. Including ours... in which I of course had bias.
Don't say I didn't warn you...
Don't say I didn't warn you...
It's gonna be based on rates of pay. The only differentiation between the positions and job requirements is compensation. And you can throw work rules and w-2's in there. That will be the deciding factor in the arbitration. Just like it was in our merger with NWA. Similar planes, similar mission. Look at where you sit compared to someone hired well before you at NWA.
Look for a staple of Air Tran junior captains and all first officers if this goes to arbitration. If that's not the result, Gary Kelly will get ugly, and on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Lorenzo days. He's SW born and bred, a true believer. He believes in the culture, think Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men.
If it doesn't go SWAPA's way, I think we'll see a partitioning of AT, with the 717's going away, and the pilots with them. Out of seniority. A la Pan Am.
I think Air Tran Pilots should have gotten a vote.
08-18-2011, 05:00 PM
#64
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by JDFlyer
Dear ALPA -
The purpose of this post is to personally thank you. For years and years I have repeatedly posted here and elsewhere why I don't like ALPA. Today is a new day. I LUV ALPA!!
The single most important asset to Southwest Airlines is its culture. Herb Kelleher, Colleen Barrett, and now Gary Kelly have worked tirelessly to preserve this one truly unique asset that Southwest Airlines possesses to the exclusion of all other airlines. It is the unique and truly priceless asset that makes Southwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines.
The purpose of this post is to personally thank you. For years and years I have repeatedly posted here and elsewhere why I don't like ALPA. Today is a new day. I LUV ALPA!!
The single most important asset to Southwest Airlines is its culture. Herb Kelleher, Colleen Barrett, and now Gary Kelly have worked tirelessly to preserve this one truly unique asset that Southwest Airlines possesses to the exclusion of all other airlines. It is the unique and truly priceless asset that makes Southwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines.
Originally Posted by JDFlyer
Today, ALPA, via 8 individuals, told Gary Kelly "You are not in charge, ALPA is." The one thing I can promise ALPA is that Gary Kelly is not going to throw away what is unique about Southwest Airlines because of a contentious integration with ALPA and AirTran. This is not ALPA's airline, it belongs to the current employees, customers, and shareholders of Southwest Airlines.
Originally Posted by JDFlyer
I am truly sorry for the AirTran pilot group at large because they will now never get to vote on their future - 8 ALPA representatives just did that for them. Whether any individual AirTran pilot liked or hated the proposed SLI is now moot. Their individual voices are now irrelevant. Eight individuals just cast the fate of 1600 pilots and their families.
Southwest Airlines, via a wholly owned entity by the name of Guadalupe Holding already owns AirTran. By voting no, all ALPA has done is reject the offer of employment from our Dallas leadership. I truly wish the AirTran pilots and their families the best of luck for their future.
So again, thank you ALPA for acting so true to your nature. Each day you reaffirm every belief I have come to hold about your union.
Very truly yours,
JDFlyer
Southwest Airlines, via a wholly owned entity by the name of Guadalupe Holding already owns AirTran. By voting no, all ALPA has done is reject the offer of employment from our Dallas leadership. I truly wish the AirTran pilots and their families the best of luck for their future.
So again, thank you ALPA for acting so true to your nature. Each day you reaffirm every belief I have come to hold about your union.
Very truly yours,
JDFlyer
08-18-2011, 05:06 PM
#66
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,284
Originally Posted by cactusmike
If you guys really believe that arbitration is not binding then you will be in for a long legal struggle. Why would you bother to be that childish? Arbitration is the process you go through when two sides do not agree. Obviously the fact that Air Tran F/Os would not upgrade for the next 9 years and that -ATL would see an influx of SWA pilots played a huge role in the AT decision.
Big boys and girls don't take their toys and run away when they lose a game. I have no idea how this will play out but I see a lot of whining from SWAPA already.
Big boys and girls don't take their toys and run away when they lose a game. I have no idea how this will play out but I see a lot of whining from SWAPA already.
You are correct. The posters who say its not binding are not looking at case law. Binding arbitration is much harder to overturn then a court decision. The new law assures Airtran they can have the list arbitrated if they desire. SWA may have some options depending on exactly what the Airtran contract and transition agreement state. It wont however sit well politically if SW tries to end run a federal law. Kelly's proposal on how to merge the list was crazy. It was obvious it was an attempt to pacify the SW pilot group after going back on managements longstanding promise to internal growth only. Upgrades are going to be long and slow as a result of the merger. Kelly made a choice to really **** off 1600 pilots but have 5000 pilots loyal to him.
08-18-2011, 05:06 PM
#67
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by Wingnutdal
In the future SWA, former SW pilots will make up 80% of the pilots. Who do you all think GK is gonna want to keep happy?
08-18-2011, 05:17 PM
#68
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,284
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
USAPA comes to mind.
08-18-2011, 05:18 PM
#69
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Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by Clear Right
SWA pilots, I just don't understand why you are so against a relative seniority list integration when you gain 140 more aircraft. You still hold the same relative position and pay on your aircraft, your quality of life does not change. These AirTran folks operate essentially the exact same equipment, what is the problem? Is the problem that you are simply jealous of the fact that the AirTran folks get a raise or that a 5 year AirTran guy is now relative to a 9 year SWA guy? I mean once you get past the jealousy has your quality of life or pay really changed in any way?
Please help me understand the issue with relative integration. I always hear this argument of, what do we (SWA pilots) get out of the deal. Guess what, you get a more healthy airline with more access to Business Travelers and International Routes, premium slots at ATL, LGA, DCA and you just eliminated a major competitor. Why do you "have" to get anything out of the deal? Just ask for more money during your next negotiations because you allowed a smooth SLI.
Please help me understand the issue with relative integration. I always hear this argument of, what do we (SWA pilots) get out of the deal. Guess what, you get a more healthy airline with more access to Business Travelers and International Routes, premium slots at ATL, LGA, DCA and you just eliminated a major competitor. Why do you "have" to get anything out of the deal? Just ask for more money during your next negotiations because you allowed a smooth SLI.
I'm sure I'll get some lashing for it but FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly.
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