Sr. Barco

After all the squabbling the question still remains: Why the anger at SWA when AAI ALPA never presented the first offer? Obviously AAI is not happy with that as evidence by their MEC being recalled. Additionally, wouldn't everyone at AAI be happy with NOT being integrated with SWA? They wouldn't have to fly with a single SWA pilot nor would they lose any seniority as a stand alone operation.

AAI ALPA voted 98% to strike and yet hates SWA for buying them. It doesn't make sense. I still see misplaced anger by a union that is used to getting its way by bullying management.

USN C9B

The first offer was a turd sandwich, not completely but there were some gems in it...losing on average 24% of your seniority with 33% as the max lose. No AAI person could upgrade for minimum 8.5 years as the next 2200+ upgrade go to SWA folks. The stapling of 650 AAI FOs. Based on those facts alone, the overwhelming majority of pilots that contacted their reps said the deal was not good enough, and to shut the deal off at the MEC level in order to move on to the next step sooner.

While some are mad with the MEC for not letting them vote, they were not recalled for that reason alone. The recall is mainly due to the perception that threats of a "Plan B" were on the table if the first offer was not taken. The these MEC members did not reveal threat or the consequences of a "No" vote and prevented any other MEC members from revealing the possible threat.

The answer to this one would be all over the map of AAI pilots were polled. I think as a whole...No. If AAI was operated separately it would be to eventually put us out on the streets. No one wants to lose their jobs.

The strike vote was to send a message to AAI management that they had better get serious with contract talks. The prior contract was 5 YEARS expired and there was a lot of frustration that AAI management was dragging their collective feet in order to pay us less. There is no anger at SWA for buying us. It is anger over that fact that we are being offered a deal that is not even close to "fair and equitable" as required by law and being threatened with our walking papers if we do not take it.

Look at it from this side and you might see the root of the anger. I have a question for you...

Why do SWA pilots think they are entitled to ALL our captain seats (but they are only getting 350 of them)? Why do their actions send a message that AAI pilots are beneath them (Hired, not Acquired bagtags, wanting a COMPLETE staple, etc). How does taking AAI captain seats, seniority, and paying 717 less save the SWA culture?

Just one guys thoughts and opinions...
C9

SherpaLifter

Cliff Notes Version:

SWA announces intent to buy AirTran. AT pilots extremely happy and excited...SWA is the best fit and best company which could have made an offer for AT. SWA sends welcome letter to all pilots telling them what a great place it is and that they will LUV working there and by the way, you'll get paid a lot more as a SWA pilot. AT pilots enter SLI negotiations thinking SLI should be close to relative, as most arbitrated awards are ball park relative seniority and it is a merger of equals (both companies fly similar aircraft and are financially healthy). MC goes to Dallas and finds out SWAPA thinks a staple or at least DOH minus 4 years would be fair. SWA sees both sides are far apart and proposes AIP1, which AT MC agrees to. Takes it to AT MEC. Pilots get a look at it and are shocked to find out how much seniority they lose and 650 FO's get stapled. Membership wages campaign for MEC to not waste time and send it out for a vote. MC says we should take the deal as SWA might have a Plan B. No one will admit to threats being credible. MEC votes down AIP1. MC goes back to the table. Herb and Collen enter the room and threaten Plan B. AIP2 emerges with agreement that it will go out to a vote. Plan B is then confirmed and detailed. Vote for AIP2 or you will never get on the SWA seniority list. Plan B makes it into the press for everyone to see.



To Sr Barco's questions:

-The anger is at SWA for a breach in trust and good faith bargaining. You don't threaten pilot's jobs if they don't vote for a bad deal. This is an SLI, not section 6 negotiations. SWA told everyone on day one that they would keep their jobs and that in SWA's culture, they practiced the Golden Rule. They broke their promise and that, in my opinion, is what is most upsetting (the terrible seniority list notwithstanding).
-The 98% strike vote after 5 years + of negotiations has nothing to do with this deal. No pilot hates SWA for buying them. Your comment about a union used to getting its way by bullying management made me laugh. Quick history lesson about unions at AirTran....they never have had any "power". NPA or ALPA, no difference. It is still AT pilots at the table.
-The first offer was presented and most thought it was inadequate. The MEC was urged to vote it down so they could proceed to mediation and not waste months with a vote. This was done to secure a better list and to try to keep the integration timeline on track.
-3 members of the ATN ATL LEC were recalled because a majority of the voters thought they deliberately withheld evidence of the Plan B threat from the membership. Had that threat been fully vetted, the MEC would most likely have sent AIP1 out for a vote. The difference between AIP1 and AIP2 is huge. Most pilots lose $40-100+K by the delay in getting on SWA rates, most pilots forced to commute, all 737 Capt seats lost until 2015, etc.
-Nearly every pilot at AirTran wants to be on the SWA seniority list!! (Especially when the alternative is the unemployment line). Although I expect that most of the initial excitement has been tempered with the new reality that SWA management does not practice the culture they preach. No one (except WhackMaster) would be happy with not being integrated.
-There is no future in a stand alone AT. As soon as the B717 leases start expiring in 2017, they will disappear, permanent furloughs will occur, and the slide in "seniority" will begin.

Sr. Barco

UCN and Sherpa--

Thank you for the civil discourse, that's rare on these forums. I'll try to address your statements....

I have two good friends at Airtran, one is a senior Captain and one is a senior F/O. I have been in close contact with them throughout the whole process so I very much see this from your point of view. I also know the details of the 3 LEC members of which you spoke.

I agree that SWAPA's initial desire to staple AAI was not good faith bargaining nor was it even a realistic or valid goal. However, AAI's desire for relative seniority was not realistic or valid either. Relative seniority for my Captain friend with 13 years at AAI would put him on the list next to a 21 year Captain at SWA. In our view that was not fair and equitable.

No, I do not believe SWA is entitled to all of AAI's Captain seats. This part of S.L.10 surprised me. What we wanted was to have anyone who can hold Captain on the new system seniority be allowed to upgrade i.e no seat protection for junior AAI Captains. S.L. 9 had 9-10 year SWA F/O's flying with 5 year AAI Captains. In our view that was not fair and equitable.

The crux of this argument lies in how "equal" SWA and AAI really are. I have worked for two lousy carriers and in my opinion SWA is a far superior company than AAI. Please don't take that the wrong way. When you objectively compare pay, benefits, schedules, health care, domiciles etc. there's no comparison. I do not know of a single pilot who has left SWA to work for AAI. Again, I'm not bashing AAI. From SWA's point of view it looks like AAI pilots are gaining so much but they want more.

Believe it or not, radical types aside, most of the pilots at SWA are hoping GK steps up with some sort of good faith gesture when/if the dust settles on this. You are correct, threatening pilots with their jobs is not cool and we are obviously concerned at the potential fallout in the form of a nasty work environment. S.L.9 with some tweaking and your 3 bad apples thrown out of the union probably would have appeased 80% of both sides. That ship has sailed and at this point there's serious risk to either party voting down S.L. 10.

--S.B.

shoelu

I agree with SB, thanks for a civil and measured response. I can certainly understand the angst with the current situation and feelings of being disenfranchised. None of this really played out the way most of us expected. With that being said, I will admit that I was vocal with my union reps that they should broker the very best deal possible for me and my seniority. I expected that and nothing less from the union I pay to represent my best interests. I am indeed worried what problems this deal will present going forward.

Smokey23

SB nails it. It really boils down to whether this whole transaction is a "merger of equals" or an "acquisition of a lesser." One's concept of Fair & Equitable then flows directly out of those viewpoints. The vastly different initial reactions of the SWA and ATN pilots to the transaction announcement speaks volumes as to how equal these two airlines really are, IMHO.

Boogie Nights

I hope many guys at SWA have this perspective. I worry that when and if we get this deal done we will be branded as aquirees. Given the chance AT will be the hardest of workers. Yes we will have our 3% who will never move on, but I am also sure SWA will have its 3% who will forever resent the AT guys.

My perspective is this. I chose this profession. I can choose to leave it if I do not like it. SWA is an admirable company to work for and we (AT folks) were/are excited at the prospect of working there. Being threatened no matter who is doing it leaves a bad taste. No one at AT wants a AW/USA situation. I think arbitration would have had a resonable solution, and we would be not far off of the proposal now. The threats and separate pay scale are really making folks feel they are not welcomed.
No one wants their apple cart upset, and I understand that.

Really the people hurt most by this proposal are the junior AT guys. We get stuck in the 717 and lower wages for 3 years, no chance get a better domicile. We will be the ones furloughed first, while guys who are hired in the next SWA hiring cycle will be making more $$ by 31 Dec 2014 than an 07 AT hire now working at SWA (by then) in the 717. We worry in the next round of contract negotiations that SWAPA will sacrafice the 717 guys (since they will all be AT guys) to get a improvements for themselves. Now admittedly we will eventually be able cross over and enjoy the benefits of be a SWAPA member, but short term we will see no improvement. What is even sadder is the junior guys would have probably passed the first proposal yet still get punished.
There is some irritation at the senior AT pilots who were most vocal and whose protest caused SL-9 to never go to a vote because their QOL would have been dramatically impacted. So now with SL-10 they chasing the $$$ by taking up all the 737 FO seats so they can cross over to SWA sooner, and get better pay as a 737 FO with no thoughts of QOL. It is just a bit hypocritical.

My personal thoughts are I will read up on this proposal, attend the road show, vote and make the best of the cards dealt to me. I will be a hard working team member no matter where I end up. I will not complain nor bare any grudge. I bare no ill-will to SWA, or SWAPA, I just hope we AT pilots once on-board recieve the respect we have earned.

I guess ultimately everyone just needs to do want is best for themselves and the place they work.

Take Care and fly safe

Boogie

Sr. Barco

I really don't think Airtran pilots will be branded as aquirees. Of course SWA has its 3%, probably 10%, who will never move on. Their opinions are meaningless. This is a nasty business but it doesn't mean we have to be nasty to each other.

If you believe the post acquisition growth numbers floating around this will be a distant memory in short order.

--S.B.

OscartheGrouch

I agree totally!

The Oscar

USN C9B

I COMPLETELY agree that SWA is a better company than AAI. It sounds to me like you are saying that because SWA is better company therefore the pilots are better? What sets SWA so far in front is your management and not necessarily the pilots. I spent over a decade flying with Navy Reserve guys from ALL the airlines. The majority of pilots at this level are more alike than different.

C9