MaxPowers

Productive, yes.

Flexible, not so much.

SlipKid

IMHO, it's a red herring negotiating tactic.

If we expend negotiating capital on this, then GK gets something else. if we fall for it, and we do accept a contract with PBS, GK gets rid of monthly and possibly vacation overlap issues, the latter being my biggest heartburn with the idea. Well, other than not trusting SWApA to ensure that we don't get hosed in other major ways.

SlipKid

Thank SWApA (again) for the waning flexibility. Not only don't they fight for it (unless it's against right of return, which would make life at the bottom of the list far more palatable, but doesn't benefit the mega senior), they are complicit.

Our open time system (ELITT) was great until SWApA agreed to reduce it significantly through various restrictions. Some were introduced in the last CBA, some were simply agreed to by SWApA without a vote (DTC is an example). The 1%ers (the mega senior folks who live on a steady diet of premium open time) HATE ELITT, since it dilutes the available open time, reducing THEIR ability to earn double that of the typical line holder. These are the folks most represented by SWApA, and our CBA reflects that. SWApA not only didn't fight them, they were complicit in introducing these restrictions, even going as far as calling some of them them "gains" in the current CBA.

Don't even get me started on training scheduling, and their complete lock on your schedule for a week during your training/pc month. SWApA gave away what little flexibility we had left (the ability to give away or pick up prior to the 17th) a few years ago, again, without a vote.

REF 5

It seems that you have more of a concern for SWAPA then management when it comes to this. Never seen this before when it comes to union/management relations. It's always been "never trust management matra". Doesn't make me feel good.

Everything on the table is kinda a negotiating tactic. Question is priority and negotiating capital. SWAPA has the latter for sure. If management makes a big deal about it then their is a price that the company must pay to get it.

That is a legitimate concern. As for some specifics as you mention above those can be negotiated to the memberships benefit if SWAPA has its priorities set specific to PBS. Obviously their is money to be saved hence why the company has brought it up. Again though, SWAPA has upper hand on this. They dictate it or should. If the company pushes SWAPA into mediation then this can become a bigger issue because all of SWA peers have it and they will beat that drum time and time again. If this becomes a defining issue in mediation the odds of getting released will be slim because not unique to the industry.

I just believe it's coming either this cycle or next. SWAPA has the upper hand and should capitalize on it. Who knows who will have the upper hand next time around. 3-5 yrs for most CBA's is a long time in this business. Don't want our pilots painted in a corner without leverage. Airlines are much larger now the NMB will be even more inclined not to release anybody. Which means the pilot groups may not have the upper hand unless they do their own self help. That's a road that may lead to more problems.

SlipKid

It's about even. PBS could be a good thing, given proper restrictions. The problem is that management would never buy off on acceptable PBS, and SWApA will accept and sell whatever they offer.

With the exception of the "radical" Weeks administration, SWApA always reverts to some level of capitulation to management. PBS will be a complete disaster for anyone south of the top 10% or so because SWApA simply won't fight for an acceptable deal.


Me either, but after being an ALPA guy for over a decade prior to coming to SW, I quickly learned that SWApA is special. The sad part is that SWApA is a reflection of the pilot group.

We get a few pilot advocates in there every so often, but they are soon labeled "difficult" and the whisper campaign starts as well as the infighting and they're relegated to fetching pizza and ousted on the next election cycle.



GK knows that PBS and codeshare are hot topics, and used the latter to his advantage last time around. We got industry leading codeshare protections, that, ironically didn't prevent any codesharing, since GK had no intention of going beyond the WJ and Volares deals anyway.


Yup, they can be negotiated, but SWApA has a long history of allowing vague language into contracts, that's later interpreted by the company differently than it was sold to the pilots. The 6.5 daily "minimum guarantee" is a perfect example. There are many situations where you'll be paid less, few of which were mentioned during the propaganda campaigns. SW negotiators are experts in wording things to sound like one thing, but mean another. Always to the detriment of the pilot's paycheck.


LOL... At this entire concept! SWApA wouldn't recognize leverage if it hit them in the face, hence our numerous side letters, DURING SECTION SIX, that yielded nothing.


IMHO, we'll end up with the same result as we would if SWApA negotiated PBS in this case. Discussing SWApA pilots being "released" is even more folly than them negotiating a reasonable (for the pilots, anyway) PBS system.

Without a major change in attitude, on both the SWApA BOD AND pilot group, we'll never have the upper hand. The vast majority of our pilots still think that our labor/management relations are the envy of the industry.

Yet, that's exactly what we've done this time around.

SWApA won't need self help, because it'll never get to that point.

REF 5

Well if management won't buy off on it then it gets tabled. Move on to the next problem. It will be their lose. MVDV and RM are not stupid. That's money left on the table. Their is common ground somewhere, in the middle. Hopefully the NC knows what it is.

Up to this point(maybe the last few years)not much to really much to ***** about. Everybody has been content with status quo. Airline is making money, pilot group seems to have a good contract. Hard to crack that nut. Especially for senior guys. But I saw this here, when negotiations drag out eventually the membership will take notice. Strong kool aid takes while to water down. But as of now the "flatish won't fly" bag tag is very far from watered down kool aid. When real organization starts(family awareness events, contract compliance education) and sprinkle the threat of picketing you'll be surprised who show's up. You have such a large pilot group with wide domicile wants and needs(OAK vs DAL). That's a hard thing for SWAPA to do. Good thing is SWAPA has a healthy bank account. Unfortunately SWAPA is going to have to spend some money to get some gains.

Good thing is SWA is selling International itineraries(Amadeus) now with the start of international service July 1st. Both those airlines are not needed. That was a stop gap. The percentage of ASM's was small anyway. MVDV want's that seed planted now. Later on it will become an after thought. By that time it will be too late. Ask all the other airlines about it. Amadeus system will open a lot potential revenue for sure. It's a big deal. Hopefully SWAPA see's it.

Funny you bring that up. First time I ever read your contract I couldn't believe how vague it was. We obviously read through many contracts as we were putting section 5 together. Although you guys have some great stuff in there IMO the language was so vague. Figured you guys have/had a good relationship that it wasn't really needed. Our management team would have driven a truck through it. Our old section 5 went from 25 pages to over 100 this time around just because we had to tighten up the language. Lots and lots of definitions. But we did a total rewrite of our contract. It was hard. Pilot group was expecting gains in EVERY section but in reality the company will got some gains to. Especially with a mediator. Being a Monday morning quarterback I wish would have picked 4 or 5 sections and hit those hard. Probably would have had a better outcome and taken less time.


Actually IMO you guys do have a better relationship than most. Wish we had that at Airtran.

SlipKid

]

We'll see.



For years, I lamented out lack of unity, but grudgingly accepted that reason was that we were treated pretty well overall. I dread(ed) the day when management would start to play hardball, as with the inertia of SS Kool Aid would be hard to turn the ship, and by then it'd be too late.


Especially when the bag tag is the END game..... I'm sure GK, VDV and Randy are quaking in their boots every time they see or hear "Flattish Won't Fly".....

The tide is slowly changing here, but there is still lots of Kool Aid in the water. There are significant numbers of pilots that don't care one whit about Section 6, and I'll bet that there are more than a few that don't even know that we're "negotiating" a contract right now.


I wouldn't hold my breath.



Yup.... Why use one simple sentence to describe a contractual item when 2 paragraphs will do. And we vote this crap in. If a 12 year old can't determine the intent of contractual language, it's too complicated and subject to interpretation that is detrimental to those working under it.


Oh, clear language is needed. It's just that SWApA won't fight the company on it's interpretation, so it's all "good".


I'd be happy if they could hit one or 2 things.


True, but that's not saying much...... BTDT.....