Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 2443942)

I think the training program is garbage and always has been. Experienced folks generally figured out how to get through it. It's also why spirit used to highly descriminate against 135 applicants that were used to training as a customer.

Now we hire many 135 pilots many with no degree so their opportunities elsewhere are limited. We also now hire many low time rj FOs that have only been through 121 initial at a regional where you get many sims and spoon fed systems. I wish we did that here but we don't. The 7-10yr FO has no problem and has been around long enough to make it work. We are hiring guys that came from a piston and went to an rj for a year or less. Many of the current applicants not only struggle through training but are somewhat more challenging to fly with. Some not all. They struggle with decision making because they haven't had many of the experiences applicants several years ago came in with as prerequisites.

The other problem which has no reflection on how they do their job or get through training is that some are so young that they have no skin in the game financially. No family, no mortgage, no college fund, no life insurance. Saying dumb crap like YOLO. No concept of what a good professional living is. I know I didn't at 24.

Some of the young guys fly great but some have no business flying a jet with 200 people in the back.

Originally Posted by Bruno82 (Post 2443970)

Can anyone provide an outline of what the training regime looks like from indoc to IOE?

Originally Posted by CRJoperator (Post 2444071)

Imagine a freshly squeezed turd... still steaming! I don't work as Spirit but from I've read/heard it sounds like 💩

Originally Posted by AllOva736 (Post 2444097)

Yeah because you're a new regional FO so you have all the answers.

Originally Posted by CRJoperator (Post 2444125)

Don't be upset and try again..

Originally Posted by TheDudeabide (Post 2444191)

You’ll spend your first week with someone brought in from an Aviation college trying to teach you about something he/she knows nothing about because they’ve never worked outside of a little instruction in piston airplanes. It’s a blur of slides as fast as they can go and no answers given to questions. Next is a week of half class/half procedures trainer. Could be a line pilot, or a retired person. Results will vary on this phase. Prepare to learn flows that don’t flow, and pressure to mount for the oral. No one has taught you the stuff on the oral yet. Then systems integration starts. Instruction starts here. It’s supposed to teach systems, but in reality you’re still learning these jacked up flows, calls and trying to shoot approaches in a touchscreen trainer. Now the Oral. If you pass that, SIMS. You get a whopping 4 sims in a plane that really doesn’t fly like anything you’ve ever flown. Next is the checkride. Then a LOFT. All together it’s 6 weeks. Don’t expect to go home during. Don’t expect anyone to care. Even the examiners and instructors say it’s 10 pounds of crap stuffed into a 5 pound bucket. IOE is actually pretty good. Those folks try to piece together the mess from training for you. Then once on line, all these Captain’s have “their” own way of doing everything, so forget what you may or may not have learned

Originally Posted by TheDudeabide (Post 2444191)

You’ll spend your first week with someone brought in from an Aviation college trying to teach you about something he/she knows nothing about because they’ve never worked outside of a little instruction in piston airplanes. It’s a blur of slides as fast as they can go and no answers given to questions. Next is a week of half class/half procedures trainer. Could be a line pilot, or a retired person. Results will vary on this phase. Prepare to learn flows that don’t flow, and pressure to mount for the oral. No one has taught you the stuff on the oral yet. Then systems integration starts. Instruction starts here. It’s supposed to teach systems, but in reality you’re still learning these jacked up flows, calls and trying to shoot approaches in a touchscreen trainer. Now the Oral. If you pass that, SIMS. You get a whopping 4 sims in a plane that really doesn’t fly like anything you’ve ever flown. Next is the checkride. Then a LOFT. All together it’s 6 weeks. Don’t expect to go home during. Don’t expect anyone to care. Even the examiners and instructors say it’s 10 pounds of crap stuffed into a 5 pound bucket. IOE is actually pretty good. Those folks try to piece together the mess from training for you. Then once on line, all these Captain’s have “their” own way of doing everything, so forget what you may or may not have learned

Originally Posted by Mozekian (Post 2444246)

Honestly, you sound like you’re blaming everyone else and maybe your training issues are more a reflection of your attitude you brought in.

“Captains have their own way of doing things.” Haha. Welcome to the airlines. And for what it’s worth, I’ve found Spirit CAs to be pretty consistent from one to the next and standardization is actually pretty good here. Sure, some CAs have their own techniques and methods they like, it’s how every 121 airline is. You expect the CAs at AA and DL to be different?

The oral is literally a handout with a majority of the questions written down for you. There is a published oral study guide, limitations and memory items. How do people fail this IF they actually prepare?

And as others have said, they tell you to know flows before training. Doesn’t “flow,” oh well. Cooperate and graduate. Those are the same flows we all learned.

Personal responsibility goes a long way

Originally Posted by AllOva736 (Post 2444169)

No your posts say it all. You have no experience but you try to act like you know how the world works. I get it through, you fly for a regional so you must be gods gift to the aviation world. It's cool man, yolo and all.........

Also some of your posts are about TSA-PSA but most are about Spirit and you don't even work there. What a little B/t(h you are....

Originally Posted by AllOva736 (Post 2444169)

No your posts say it all. You have no experience but you try to act like you know how the world works. I get it through, you fly for a regional so you must be gods gift to the aviation world. It's cool man, yolo and all.........

Also some of your posts are about TSA-PSA but most are about Spirit and you don't even work there. What a little B/t(h you are....

Originally Posted by Mozekian (Post 2444246)

Honestly, you sound like you’re blaming everyone else and maybe your training issues are more a reflection of your attitude you brought in.

“Captains have their own way of doing things.” Haha. Welcome to the airlines. And for what it’s worth, I’ve found Spirit CAs to be pretty consistent from one to the next and standardization is actually pretty good here. Sure, some CAs have their own techniques and methods they like, it’s how every 121 airline is. You expect the CAs at AA and DL to be different?

The oral is literally a handout with a majority of the questions written down for you. There is a published oral study guide, limitations and memory items. How do people fail this IF they actually prepare?

And as others have said, they tell you to know flows before training. Doesn’t “flow,” oh well. Cooperate and graduate. Those are the same flows we all learned.

Personal responsibility goes a long way

Originally Posted by CRJoperator (Post 2444360)

Aww do you kiss your mommy with those lips? Easy to sit behind a keyboard and call someone a "little b%*^+". Did I hurt your feeling by calling your training department POOP? Aww don't be upset little man, it will all be okay.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist (which you're obviously not) to figure out where I work.

Originally Posted by TheDudeabide (Post 2444370)

Honestly, you sound like one of the lame @22 “training” department people. Why not just do it like Compass and have new hires do it online at home and eliminate the instructors that don’t instruct

Originally Posted by Bruno82 (Post 2443970)

Can anyone provide an outline of what the training regime looks like from indoc to IOE?

Originally Posted by Flying101 (Post 2444372)

Don't waste your breath arguing with him. He knows the training is below par.

Originally Posted by TheDudeabide (Post 2444370)

Honestly, you sound like one of the lame @22 “training” department people. Why not just do it like Compass and have new hires do it online at home and eliminate the instructors that don’t instruct

Originally Posted by sg1159 (Post 2444926)

you whiners crack me up......

Stop it!

The training was designed for adults that can take the initiative to make some progress on their own. (notice i didn’t say theyre or there...)

i am no rocket scientist, and at no point did i feel put upon, or unnecessarily challenged with the training.

This is the point in your career where you are expected to be able to learn material- perhaps on your own, to an extent.

The training “issues” are easily second to the contract...
If someone can’t pass the training here-
i really don’t want to fly with you anyway.

Sack up.

Originally Posted by AllOva736 (Post 2444787)

Yeah you're right, I do know it and I also need to relax a little. it just bugs me when people who are fresh to the industry try to act like we are trash compared to their sweet RJ training. The training may be crap at Spirit but that's the weak ones don't make it.

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 2443942)

I think the training program is garbage and always has been. Experienced folks generally figured out how to get through it. It's also why spirit used to highly descriminate against 135 applicants that were used to training as a customer.

Now we hire many 135 pilots many with no degree so their opportunities elsewhere are limited. We also now hire many low time rj FOs that have only been through 121 initial at a regional where you get many sims and spoon fed systems. I wish we did that here but we don't. The 7-10yr FO has no problem and has been around long enough to make it work. We are hiring guys that came from a piston and went to an rj for a year or less. Many of the current applicants not only struggle through training but are somewhat more challenging to fly with. Some not all. They struggle with decision making because they haven't had many of the experiences applicants several years ago came in with as prerequisites.

The other problem which has no reflection on how they do their job or get through training is that some are so young that they have no skin in the game financially. No family, no mortgage, no college fund, no life insurance. Saying dumb crap like YOLO. No concept of what a good professional living is. I know I didn't at 24.

Some of the young guys fly great but some have no business flying a jet with 200 people in the back.

Originally Posted by Dukeuno (Post 2444899)

You do realize the Delta has you go to basic INDOC, and then they send you home to learn the systems of the AC you were awarded on CBTs. I don't know how people don't know their flows by the time they come to class, hell they even send an email telling you when you get the job offer " Know your Flows". I really didn't think the training was that hard. It was time consuming, but not over board. Yes it would be nice to have a few more SIMs. As far as the CAs here, everyone I have flow with has been awesome. They are all professional. Maybe you should look in the mirror to see the problem. Take some accountability.

Originally Posted by nimslow (Post 2445041)

I'll wager Delta pays you for that time you are studying systems, since it's after you start training. and all. Thats the way it's done at my shop. Initial systems is home study, before training starts, but we get paid for it. I'm not sure how it works for new hires, but if we change equipment, we get 50% of our hourly rate for the programmed home study hours.

Four sims seems crazy for someone without any prior bus experience. I think we got 7, then the maneuvers validation and LOE (check ride).

We get two weeks of VFD/CPT including a few sessions in the sim, with the motion off before the systems test and start of sim.

We also don't do orals, it's a computer based "electronic systems validation". Much better than stump the dummy style orals.

I love the "sack up" comments. So much ancestor worship in this industry, or the "that's the way it was when I flew the Convair/-9/727, etc, so thats the way it needs to be now".

Originally Posted by Flying101 (Post 2444985)

He brings up some valid points. I can't confirm it but from the looks of it he's an American FO.

Originally Posted by Mozekian (Post 2445105)

Well lets not conflate these two thing; "sack up" isn't meant to point out that our training program is detailed and all inclusive of what a new hire will need to know. However guys are passing this program as we speak and 1700 on the list now have passed the program, so it can be done with some concentrated effort and study before you show up.

With anything in life, complaining and blaming others for your possible shortcomings will never be received well once above the age of 6.

A contrary to those who like to blame our instructors, every one I have dealt with has been great at what they do. But don't blame instructor if they can't take a low time/experience pilot and make them pass a type ride in 4 sims; some things are just outside of their skill set of techniques.

Originally Posted by BeechedJet (Post 2445134)

I came here from an AQP airline. The level of difficulty between AQP and Spirit's system is night and day. With that being said, every pilot in my class hustled and passed the oral and checkride on their first try. 8 weeks of training jammed into 5 sucked but we made it work. There was a class that was starting towards the end of when we finished. Every night during indoc I'm pretty sure they partied and the washout rate ended up being some crazy number.

The training is difficult but it isn't impossible. No hand holding at Spirit and honestly that is where I feel the real company interview happens.

Originally Posted by BeechedJet (Post 2445134)

No hand holding at Spirit and honestly that is where I feel the real company interview happens.

Originally Posted by nimslow (Post 2445372)

I don't have a dog in your fight, other than I know several people who have passed the training there. I know it works, my point was it sounds like there is room for improvement. Pilots as a group tend to cling to what we know, and have that "I did it, so whats the problem" attitude.

I'm sure the majority of your instructors are great people, and do what they can, given the limits of the program. And I totally agree, don't blame anyone else for your failures.

Four sims just seems like the company is short changing the new hires. Do they pair two new fo's together, and have them swap seats? Is all the sim time in the right seat, and then you are expected to do the ride from the left? Personally I think all your training time should be in the seat you will be qualified in.

IMHO, training should be a low stress, learning environment, with the end result a competent crew member. I'm not saying a trainee shouldn't have to put in the effort, but training shouldn't give you gray hair and ulcers.





I spent the majority of my career doing non AQP training. At my first commuter (I'm an old guy, so commuter instead of regional) half of my new hire class didn't make it through training. Thats nuts. AQP is a much better way to do things. People will still wash out, but you have to work pretty hard at it.

If the selection and hiring program is doing its job, and the training department is on the ball, the failure rate should be very low.

I don't get the not going home part either. At my current shop, they encourage you to go home and forget about everything on your days off.

Best of luck to your pilot group, I hope you get a decent contract.

Originally Posted by bruhaha (Post 2445935)

Nope the training is like everything else at Spirit. Just enough to check the boxes at the appropriate time.

Everything in new hire training is done in the left seat. Training is done in the left seat, Type rating is done in the left seat. Apart from trying to get the type ride done in 4 sims, the next transition is showing up for IOE with no clue how to do anything as an FO, because the only flying they've done in the right seat is just to watch the other fellow newhire guy do a cat III landing from the right seat, and then they get to do a cat I landing from the right seat for the first time in the entire training program on the checkride sim.

So any right seat time for an newhire showing up for IOE is just the 3-5 minutes they did flying in the right seat for the right seat qual.

The training assumes that the pilot has previous airline/121 experience to draw from so that the transition from training in the left seat as a Captain to line flying in the right seat as an FO is not a big adjustment. But if you have no prior experience, there will be a lot of figuring things out on your own.

Studying for the oral is like studying those old red Gleim books... Every question the examiner can possibly ask you is in the study guide that is given to the newhire. A pilot doesn't need to actually know how to fly or understand anything about the airbus to pass the oral, they just need to be able to regurgitate the answer from the oral study guide from rote memorization.

Originally Posted by Mozekian (Post 2445997)

And yet we have failures on the orals all the time. Insane since the answers are there, essentially

Believe 8 in one class failed the oral.

Originally Posted by DWDrums (Post 2446370)

If an individual shows up day one knowing flows, memory items, limitations, and have gone through systems cbt once, they'll do fine. It's not a low experience problem, it's an "are you disciplined to work/study" problem.

Originally Posted by flyboyike (Post 2446461)

That's it right there. If this half-witted, half-blooded, not particularly smart or good-looking immigrant managed to pass it, it can't be all THAT hard.

Originally Posted by Green Giant (Post 2446631)

Or this airline prefers your attributes and decided to keep you.

Originally Posted by injun21 (Post 2447088)

Can a new hire get ORD right out of training?