Haha no. I just don't like when people give blanket statements. Such as: "I'm a no vote if transition is gone" or "full retro or bust".

I just like to play devils advocate by challenging you to take a more methodical approach. For example: Review Hawaiian retro pay then figure out how much you would've gotten using that formula based on your longevity at spirit. Then when the company offers money in the form of retro or a signing bonus, you can compare your calculation. Then make a decision. I'd rather have a $50k high-five signing bonus vs. a $45k retro check. But yes, retro pay is typically going to be higher than a signing bonus.

All speculative..... Let's not post what we will/won't vote for. We KNOW management reads these forums, so let's not give them any potential ammunition against our NC please.

He's not saying what he will or won't vote for. He in fact said he had a number in his head of what he's looking for and then will vote accordingly .. and the point i think he's trying to make is if the number they offer you is let's say 40k.. who really cares if they call it retro, bonus, spirit pilot appreciation money, boat down payment fun money Fund or what.. I'm in agreement with him.. I know what I'm looking for in the contract in it's entiriety... when it comes out I'll
Analazye the situation.. and go from there.. and between the surveys, and conversations the NC knows what we will or not vote for ... they've relayed that to management for 2 years now... it's not a state secret

I agree we should not negotiate in public.

I'll say it this way: I expect full retro. Management can label it whatever name they want, but I expect it in our TA.

If management wanted the pilots to get a new contract, they would have presented one two years ago. As much as I want to believe Bendo and Bob have had a sudden change of heart and want to share their millions with the pilots, I'm simply not buying it. The extra sessions requested by the company are a another delay tactic, designed to placate the pilot group through the holiday transition over the 4th. Another operational meltdown over a holiday weekend would be a black eye to the company the board would no longer be able to ignore, and our fearless leaders would be searching the classified ads. I hope I'm wrong, but I fear this one's gonna be decided in a strike some years down the road.

I think you could be right for the wrong reasons. They won't offer us a contract due change of heart, that's a no brainer but they might want a contract for us because if they know if we can't keep or attract people in the very near future things might hit the fan in a major way. keeping this place running smoothly is preservation of self as far as the brass is concerned. They want to maximize their pay today but I'm sure they still want to get paid tomorrow.

We should all know this by now, but I'll lay it out in case you don't.

RETRO is the only monetary motivation that the company has to not drag this out for all eternity. If 100% retro is paid, then from a strictly pay perspective it's almost as if the new contract had been reached on opening day. And if that's the case, then perhaps it motivates them a little more to reach an agreement to offset things like attrition, morale, or the inability to attract qualified applicants to begin with.

A signing bonus is just that. Money that can be paid out whenever, giving the company every motivation to prolong the old contract.

Granted, it's not that simple. There are other ways in which the company profits, such as prolonging poor trip and duty rigs, rest requirements etc.

To not ask for full retro is a failure on ALPA National's part, not just on our MEC. I am of the mindset that every contract signed should include 100% retro. Making 100% retro pay "Industry Standard" will go a long ways towards helping out *ALL* pilot groups in the future.

As long as we are handcuffed to the outdated *RAILWAY* Labor Act, this is one of very few weapons that we have. The fact that some of us don't know this is proof enough that change is needed.

To simplify what you are saying... without retro we pay for our own raise.

Obviously you don't understand the point I'm trying to make. I would hope everyone understands the difference between retro and a signing bonus. It's not quantum physics. Of course neither was my point... which you don't get. For the sake of not beating a dead horse, let's just say I agree with you.

Don't be short sighted, it's semantics.

Who cares if they call it retro or signing bonus.

Count the $$$.

If it is enough, then it is enough.

If not, it isn't.