Wrong

Union data shows 20% a month get a conflict, 10% get is based on seniority and 10% get it for various reasons like training, vacation, 29/7 issues. Straight from a NC conference call about a year ago.

So who shall I trust, their data or yours that you should get it once every 2 months? Sorry but I don’t do well with arbitrary statements that if you try, you get a conflict without any issue.

Many people bid lines for commuting purposes, weekends off with family, layovers in specific cities for various reasons, and other reasons. Many people don’t live a life based or needing to live life with conflict blinders and that’s all they see and all they bid for. Many people don’t live a life of Flica sort of “first 6 days on or last 6 days off” every month. And for the majority that don’t seek conflict every month, understand that they don’t feel so attached to it as you do.

Imagine a world where you don’t need to have a 20 hour conflict and then pick up on top of it. Imagine a world where you can just work your line and afford to live. It’s not like people solely use conflict for drops and then enjoy the time off. Many use it to drop and repick up for more money because our rates suck.

Yeah because a 12 day off reserve line at 72 hours is so much sweeter when it becomes a 14 or 15 day off reserve line for 72 hours. We are living the sweet life! 😏

3 or 4 days off isn't negligible, it's the difference between an absolute horse$#!+ line and a paid vacation.

You’re right on many points but it was still insulting. It’s basically what Jetblue makes today with weaker rigs than jetblue. And they are negotiating substantial raises at the same time as us.

It also had our current weak scope to include unlimited codesharing (can you say Spirit 100 operated by NAI), and terrible LTD (hello Walmart greater when you lose your first class)

Oh I agree that their offer was not going to cut it at all with that offer. LTD and scope being HUGE issues that will need to be addressed regardless of wages and bidding.

To say that only 20% benefit from the current transition language is completely misguided. If I have a transition trip drop, and don't pick up on top of the drop, where does the flying go? I'm already paid for the trip, and I get to stay home for 9-10 days. That trip is covered by someone else that wants to make extra money at 100-200% or improve their schedule, or it keeps a RSV pilot employed or in their seat. Whether you can consistently hold a transition conflict or not, the language greatly benefits everyone on property.

Well in accuracy, I said that 20% will "get a conflict," you said benefit. I used the 20% because this is the data provided by the union.

Lets not conflate two things by saying it benefits everyone because of the trickle down. That wasn't the topic, the topic was people who bid and receive a conflict transition and receive the benefits of free pay/extra days off.

The "butterfly flaps its wings" theory on conflict, helping all, could also be used to say "All that open time results in more open time vs reserve coverage, causing more red days, and not allowing our pilots to ever be able to drop days at the front of the month."

The guys that slay the conflict system each month with those perfect 6 day drops have a great thing going. But not everyone wants to spend every month trying to find that last 2 day trip to stack up a conflict for this month, and then try and bid a conflict line the next month. A lot of us just want to bid a line, fly our line, and get paid a fair wage, and not spend our lives living off the conflict game.

This X 1000% YES. I hope that is the majority of us and what was gathered from all the polling done over the last few years.

What those who are so obsessed with the transition game don't seem to realize either is that with industry standard pay they could drop a 4 day trip and still make more money than what they are currently making.

But, they aren't offering industry standard pay. They want us to take less than industry standard and give up transition.

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I believe that is the minority and not "a lot of us".
Most folks that are in this frame of mind bid relief.
It is a choice to do so , but please do not try to convince us that only a few benefit from transitions, it is simply not true.
I do not even try that hard and at 70% seniority on the left seat I get some sort of transition drop at least every other month.
Transitions are a great benefit to open time, reserves and junior pilots, and not just the folks "lucky enough" to get them.

PBS is going to dramatically decrease staffing, (10-15%) which will affect everyone.
This may mean the difference between being stuck on reserve or relief indefinitely, or no upgrade if your are in the 55-65% seniority range when growth stops.

Just because they offered it doesn't mean we have to accept it man...

So that transition drop "every other month" is worth more to you than industry standard pay with PBS? Also, if the "a lot of us" is the minority then how come the ALPA polling said differently?

Like I said, they aren't offering industry standard pay... You keep talking about industry standard pay being worth something. If they had offered it, we would have a conversation, but they aren't offering it.

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Dammit man no one is saying transition is more important than those things. We are saying to not be so flippant towards getting rid of it. It has real value that those statements only undermine. In-base people could argue that 4 days off only screws them out of lines with all weekends off and they’d be right. That said it is a work rule that shouldn’t just be given away.

omg they aren't offering it which is why our mec walked away. I think you are under the impression that we can either accept the current company offer or that's it which if that was the case we would have gotten this over with a long time ago.

Did I ever say that it should "just be given away"?

The 5 hr per day WILL be in the new contract? That was the company proposal, not the ALPA proposal. 5 hrs is a slap in the face... especially with PBS. Your post is the perfect example of how the company has been able to manage your expectations.

You sure about that? You sure a 5 hour min duty period wasn’t also the final ALPA proposal as well? The only difference being that ALPA wanted implementation on day 1 and the company wanted it when PBS was implemented. You sure? Because the ALPA NC website says they are both 5 hours for the min duty period.

It’s unknown if/what ALPA will ask for in the form of a min duty period with any inclusion in PBS, but as of now, the last ALPA proposal had a 5 hour min duty period, as did the company.

I won’t end with some smart “educate yourself” line like you chose to. Instead I suggest you visit the Spirit ALPA website and review the final offer we gave to the company and where we differ and where we agree. This is our most recent offer we presented. Guess what, we both have presented 5 hour min duty days. So the statement of it not being an ALPA proposal is inaccurate.

Min duty period is a joke anyway. How many 4 day trips do we have with only 3 duty periods and a 21hr overnight. Hello 15hr 4 day. And the 4.2/1 is never triggered.

MIN CALENDAR DAY!

1:3.5 is a must along with better pay rates!

I get transition conflicts pretty regularly, I think we should give back reserve drops or at least "center of reserve block" drops if we can keep transition because that won't affect me personally and it really only applies to 20% of the pilot group anyway.


That's the game we're playing here, right?

Theeeee ole drop the middle day.

Im going to miss flying 160hrs a year..........

I’m going to miss not being paid industry standard wages.

That's great but only a select few of our 1600+ pilots can pull off 160 hours a year so the interests of the 20% of us who pad our credit to block ratios with TX drops every month or two must take precedence over those of your insignificant little group. For the greater good your drop the middle day loophole is just gonna have to go.


Damn, I'm really warming to this "it doesn't affect me personally so IDGAF" method of contract negotiations we've stumbled upon in this thread!!! Maybe we can even get some snazzy yellow "Screw Anyone Who Isn't Me, I'm Gonna Get Me Mine" lanyards so nobody forgets it? /sarcasm

How can you miss something you never had in the first place?

How much OT is there in ACY?? And, let’s say they wanted to send you elsewhere to cover a trip, how easy would it be to get you there? The benefits you enjoy there don’t necessarily apply to those of us in DFW, ORD, or DTW....

So much for not negotiating in public..

Jesus dude calm down, lol. I wasnt saying TX isnt important, its all important. Im in favor of doing what benefits the majority over what benefits just me

Im ok with middle day drops going away if it means we get Industry Standard Pay. They gottaaaaaa pay though!

ACY is home of the double deadhead to start & end a trip. (For RSVs). Very easy for them to limo us to PHL and DH

Fair enough, I didn’t know that was a regular occurrence for y’all...

Its almost a gaurantee in ACY. Guys go out on 5,6 day trips all the time with more DH legs than active ones

I wasn't serious, was just an admittedly weak, tongue in cheek attempt to mock the "transition is a small percentage and doesn't affect me so it means nothing if it goes away" crowd.

It was a joke man. I was poking fun at those that seemed to be so obsessed with their transition conflicts where I just want to get a line and get paid to fly said line the same amount as everyone else.

Don’t be cry baby! You are obviously jealous of the savvy bidders who take the extra time to set up a conflict.

You should be happy for the guys that manage a conflict because....
1. More opentime for you to swap/pickup.
2. Higher staffing requirements.
3. More relief lines. Which equals a guaranteed 15 days off.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

A hundred percent of the pilots having to bid conflicts, work schedule magic and pick up extra time to make a livable wage sucks. I would take PBS and be able to create schedules per my request instead of bidding lines that hopefully generally fit what I want. To me that would be better than trying to keep 15% on the list. Especially if you plan on being there long term.

Let’s say you are selling your airport car for an asking price of $2000. I offer you $2000 if you throw in that extra set of tires you had just bought for it. At this point in the negotiating process, would you say that we have agreed on the sale price of $2000? Of course not. My offer was contingent on you throwing in those (new) tires. You could probably get a couple extra hundred dollars for those on Craigslist.

Same with the company offer vs the ALPA offer.

ALPA’s proposal was for 5 hrs min credit per duty period. WITH THE INCLUSION of 1:3.5 trip rig, 1:2 Duty rig (1:1.75 for nighttime ops), and retaining the 22 hr layover rig.

The company proposal was, as you said, 5 hrs min per duty period after PBS implementation, and retain the 22 hr layover rig.

To further argue my point: If you go back to your ALPA email from 9/14 and look at the comparison guide, you’ll notice at the top it says “Major differences between ALPA’s final proposal and that of Spirit.” Why would both sides say “retain 22 hour layover rig”? If we agreed on it, then why is it even mentioned? Because it’s not agreed upon any more than the sale price of $2000 for your car.

I’m sorry to be so blunt with you, but you hit a nerve in me when you appear to be arguing on the side of PBS by using the argument that the 5 hour min per duty period will somehow save the day.

I sure hope you’re not in that 15% one day when furloughs happen or you get displaced because your base is shrinking or closing and you have to commute for a decade. So quick to shed xx% of your brothers. Sad

“Create schedules per my request...” is where you lost me. Maybe that works for people with a lot of seniority in category, but for the bottom 80% it should read “my request MAY be considered by a management controlled computer.” But PBS is just a way to sort pairings says the Spirit MEC.

"It doesn't affect me personally so I don't care, let's sell that sh!t out".

You're dramatics are meaningless. The 15% won't get cut off the bottom it'll just be less total needed in the future. That 15% hasn't been hired yet....and given the lack of people even showing up to class or finishing, I don't think that's going to be a problem. But go ahead keep that future 15% so everyone can do their best working schedule magic and trip drops to try to get what you want.
People on the bottom don't get their desired schedule under either plan so that point is meaningless too.
I've had years of both types. PBS by far has been better.
But I understand when you have severely low wages it's hard to make up the lack income unless you pick up huge amounts of credit some way.
Hopefully you guys win and get industry-standard wages and these problems will be in the past. I really do wish you the best of luck. If I was anywhere near Texas tomorrow I would march with you guys.
BTW I have been in that bottom 15%. But if I spend my whole career worrying about being in the bottom 15% and forget about the 85 that doesn't make for such a great career.

You've way exaggerated this. My experience has been the opposite, top 80% get almost everything they want.
Especially when it comes to getting certain exact days off peppered throughout the month and not some exact pattern. Like if you've got kids on different sports teams, holiday events on weekends or middle of the week meetings with the schools. Works great.