By the way it's one of two QOL items we keep.
The point is NOT that we literally lose 4days off.
It will become a reality to most of us in the middle to low seniority, that we will be "forced" to give it up voluntarily, to be in equal bidding terms with everyone else that is.
The ones that are firm on 4days off will not be gaining the max out of their bidding options.
It is therefore not the same as now, and not worth the same in negotiating for it.

 

We ALL vote our own selfish reasons. I'm simply trying to figure out how you weigh a few, or many, work rules against 3 solid protections?

One gives you a day or 2 extra off a month, the other can determine whether you still have a job, paycheck, home 10/20/30 years later, enjoying the fruits of your labor.


I guess losing a great job with retirement and good benefits, followed up with a furlough (again with great benefits) over a 2 year span tainted me a bit.

I'll stop selling it here. 🍻

 

Have you received the TA?

 

Nobody has as of 1300 EST.

 

We don’t have to wait five years frontier exists now and threat of codesharing is real. And if it’s not frontier why does it matter if it’s in five years or twenty? You get scope before it blows up in your face. Did we learn nothing from RJs. The legacy pilots saw no threat because that wasn’t the current model. It exploded like a time bomb in their faces and now they have had to try and reel it in since.

As to Norwegian and WoW or volaris or avianca or air Asia etc etc etc, a large chunk of our schedule is international and I would expect the company would at some point like to add many more Intl destinations to include Europe and Asia. The ULCC and LCC model is everywhere already it’s just a matter of if we are going to be the pilots doing the flying or if it’s going to be done as a codeshare with ho wi shiit from air Asia or some low life at Norwegian. I don’t have some hard on for wide bodies but I do want to protect what should be ours when it comes to growth. Europe can be reached with a NEO anyway. And if we ever got widebodies because our scope doesn’t allow codesharing it only grows the ranks protecting you further from furlough and makes everyone that doesn’t want to fly it that much more senior on the narrow body they wish to stay on.

And let’s not forget the threat of whipsaw. Without massive restrictions on codesharing you have constant threat of whipsaw and lose any leverage in future negotiations. Even if they don’t want to do it they can hang it over your head to suppress compensation with thread of codesharing our future flying. We buy that insurance once and now is the time before the disease appears.

 

I know you know where F9 is in negotiations because you spend more time contributing to our forum than our own pilots. So, hypothetically, if you turn down a TA this month, Spirit is going to codeshare out to Frontier? While F9 is also in a hiatus with their pilot’s labor contract? That’s your reasoning?! F9 can barely fill their training classes and our growth hasn’t nearly begun. When was your last drug test?

Yeah if you haven’t noticed nobody wants to touch RJs at the moment (Delta especially) because the regionals are struggling to hire and if the price of fuel goes up those 50 seat RJs will once again no longer be economical, many have speculated that there will be many of those RJs parked when the fuel hits a magic number and the hiring shortage will have another temporary relief. ALSO, if you haven’t noticed Spirit is not a hub and spoke airline; so RJs do not fit the business model.

So do you want big international growth for Spirit or be compensated appropriately during career? Will you sacrifice your pay and benefits to subsidize Spirit’s growth into this mega airline?


Whipsaw?! Do you even understand that term? Codeshares are reciprocal agreements between airlines (typically of different countries). Airlines make money by moving passengers and while they do make some money on codeshare agreements, it more about expanding their network to sell more tickets on domestic routes. They want to add airplanes and move the passengers on their own metal, because that is where the money lies. Look at JetBlue’s expansion domestically (they’re now around 3700 pilots), do you think codesharing hurt them or helped them turn a little Boston airline into a formidable competitor in th U.S.? And how about that supposed aircraft order that Spirit is waiting to announce, do you think that your pending contract has ANY effect on their plans, whatsoever? It’s a carrot, man!


I’m not putting anyone down for voting yes or no after the polls open on Monday. Just don’t go selling your bull crap reasoning and fear mongering across APC, we’re already well tired of it on Frontier’s forum.

Literally the only excuse I’ve seen on here that makes any sense is, “well we better get into a contract before the next round of mergers and we get stuck in our current contract.” I understand that, and it seems everyone else does too. Do you like the TA enough or risk hanging out there a while longer? You’ll make the best decision for you.

 

You bring up some excellent points.

I would say that the airline is actually postponing future orders BECAUSE of our current contract. It is so inefficient, the airline would have 4000 pilots just to fly appx. 200 airframes. That's why our current CBA offers us more leverage than I think most realize. These inefficiencies are costly for a small scale airline. With a scaled up operation, it's literally crippling. Spirit needs these concessions.

 

RJs were an example not that I’m currently worried about Spirit using them. It was to illustrate that the pilots of the time never saw it coming as you are clearly not seeing the future.

No I don’t want to subsidize spirits growth I want to insure they don’t grow by using pilot off the seniority list plain and simple. I don’t give two shiits about some mythical order either. That has no factor in my decision making

The word reciprocal is very loose and only limited by pilot scope clauses. So yes I do know what whipsaw means and it doesn’t just have to relate to two or more airlines owned under the same holding company or regional airlines fighting for new planes controlled by a mainline carrier. I used the term correctly

Yes I do think Jetblue’s codeshare agreements hurt the Jetblue seniority list pilots. It’s probable they would be much larger than 3500+ that they are now. As a side not their pilots do get a small piece of that codeshare pie through profit sharing. And if Jetblue and Southwest wanted to create the “One America Alliance” they could and they could shrink one airline and grow the other for the right codesharing terms. Nothing in the Jetblue contract prevents this. What prevents it is the southwest pilot contract. Continental codeshared with US Air before their mergers. It had precise restrictions because of pilot scope to keep it from getting out of control

Without scope you have nothing. It’s only a matter of time until it hunts you down. It might be tomorrow and it might be 25 years from now. It’s not fear mongering. It’s historical fact. Learn from the past. Ask any DHL pilot at Spirit what their pay rates are worth now.

Btw I’m not advocating for the TA because I haven’t seen it. If it doesn’t have Scope I’m voting NO. If it does it’s priceless insurance. From what I’ve heard though it may come up short.

 

What is the motivation of the NC and MEC putting this to vote?

Is this T/A cost neutral?

A wholesale massacre for... a one time "bonus" that won't buy a top of the line Hyundai to swallow a poison pill?