The Signing "Bonus" is the problem
 

Serious question:

What would the consensus among our yes voters be if there was no one-time taxed "bonus" for trading away so much... to be locked into a subpar agreement for the next 5-8 years?

I will go out on a limb and say that if you are a FO and voting yes, it is not because of the bonus. That being said, 350+ FOs are on probation and won't be participating by providing a vote

I would guess around 1500 to 1600 pilots would be eligible to vote. I agree as an FO the signing bonus is a joke.( I am voting yes)

Anything less than 100% retro is a joke. It sends a message to the company that it was okay to drag this out for 3 years.

They get to keep our 43% pay raises for themselves. (Minus the bonus, which makes it about, roughly, approximately, plus or minus, 2 years pay we lose.) That's about 6 figures for nearly every pilot who's been here since early openers.)

Oh, and expect nothing to change in 5 years when we do this all again.

Question 1: What airline has ever gotten "full retro?"
Question 2: How do you figure they keep our pay raise for themselves?
Guys like you come on here and make these outlandish statements like they are facts. If you want to hate this TA fine, but give a good reason. I cannot imagine how you could back up anything you're saying with logic or anything based on reality, but please indulge us...

This is the reality of the RLA. Keep beating that 100% retro drum, but it will never make a difference. It’s unjust from our point of view but reality nonetheless.

Delta got full retro last contract, just FYI.

They did but their % of pay increase was smaller an they didnt negotiate past 12 months of amendable (or somewhere around there)

Nor 43% pay raises, added scope, LTD, a retirement plan, etc... We are so far frickin behind!

Lots of use of “should” on this forum. Is there a more useless word in the english language?

I’m a yes voter but I would vote no if there was not a ratification/retro payment. However, I’m jot voting yes BECAUSE of it either. Not paying us anything for our pain and suffering for the past three years would make me so angry that I would vote no out of spite.

Good news and bad news for you...


Good news is there are enough level headed pilots at Spirit to vote this thing in, keeping you from making a horrible decision by sailing into the unknown without the proper industry protections one needs in this career. So thats the good thing, you get LTD, DC, huge raise, substantial scope improvements, etc...

Bad News is you will never be happy at Spirit because you are simply just unrealistic.

I don't know anyone that's voting in this TA for the signing bonus. I am voting yes because of a number of reasons:

Over 5000/month pay raise (A 2 year F/O gets about 2700/month) (those numbers include the DC plan)
A great LTD plan
A good DC plan
Better Scope

I don't think we'd ever get full retro. And I'm not willing to lose 5000/month to take that chance.

This is exactly how the company wants us to vote, by thinking how much we are "losing/mo". This takes our focus away from the severe QOL losses.
Sending this back is a worthy "sacrifice" when we regain provisions, which will be maintained as ammunition for the next round.
Otherwise what will be left to negotiate with in 5-7 years?
June is just 3 months away.
Have faith, this is a great time for gains, it may not be this favorable in the future.

What does June have to with this vote? If you think we are going to have a melt down if this gets shot down you are completely wrong. They have enough people coming over to fill classes right now. Maybe reach out and ask the NC what plan B is if this fails? I think they said there is no plan. I am not telling you how to vote, but if you vote No don’t do it thinking the company will come crawling back to the table. Vote No because you are willing to work under the current CBA for who knows how long. Just like the No voters have said don’t vote Yes out of fear.

I hear they did this also last time, scares people into yes vote with having no back up position. I think may be TA was loss when same negotiator was picked for this time. Hope we learn this time.

Cant wait for this to pass!

Back to your hole, Cole.

I’m sorry but they’ve had meltdowns every summer. This TA gives them meltdown protection.

Hmmm besides the May meltdown which resulted in our TRO I don’t recall another melt down last summer ( June through August)

I said EVERY summer not ALL summer. Meltdown 2015, for example, was when we simulated TA 2018 for a few days thanks to JA.

BTW that quid we got really produced some magic here.

I didn’t say all summer. I am wondering what other melt down we had last summer after the TRO was implemented? I don’t recall one. I keep hearing about the Big Spirit pilot shortage, but from what I have heard from instructors and the MEC there is no shortage right now. Yes we could have a meltdown due to WXbut I don’t believe that pilot shortage will result in a meltdown there there is not one right now. Every Airline has a WX meltdown each year. They just seem to recover better because they are managed better.

We realize that, but Bendo told the Negotiating Committee this is Spirit's best offer! :rolleyes:

I’m saying that there will likely be a meltdown 2019 as there was a meltdown 2017 (TRO), 2016, 2015,...
Staffing has not mattered. It’s a primary reason rescheduling and PBS were on Jyri/Bendoraitis’s must have list.
Do you understand yet?

Haha...Wrong

Guys were hanging around in airports for hours, waiting for hotel rooms, waiting to see where they are going....New contract we are getting paid to sit and wait when they are contemplating a reschedule. We were getting rescheduled then for nothing.

Guys were getting rescheduled into days off and getting nothing in 2015. 4.5 pay for some. With the TA we will be compounding to 200%

Stick to the truth.

Meltdown 2015 will happen at this place from time to time.

Question is simple: Do you want to make extra money when it melts down or hang around waiting for your quid? Ill take the contract that specifies the money vs a goodwill gesture from Bendo when it happens.

How much did guys make when they were stuck in Houston for the hurricanes this year? Was it 3.5 trip rig with 200% for the entire trip once they hit their 2nd day stuck there? Do the math, a 4 day with 2 extra days stuck in IAH this year 3.5 rig, all at 200% per the new contract, around 80 hours credit....Over $16k pay for a CA. How much did our guys get paid with this "awesome contract" this time?


Thats what I thought.

You do know we already have rescheduling in our current contract. So if one of my flights is cancelled I can be rescheduled today.

Wrong.
How much did these meltdowns cost them? How much will they cost them in the future? Paying you 200% of below industry pay is much cheaper. Don’t get me wrong I want the company to get back on track but I will not volunteer to subsidize this company’s growth/business model.

Oh gee thanks for pointing that out I had no idea!

Your welcome. :) Lol

Double Wrong. Wrong Wrong (Thats 4 wrong)

We have a meltdown this year, we will have our behinds dragged into court in a second and the TRO will hang over us until the next meltdown. You are hoping the company has another meltdown, we dont bail them out, a judge doesnt see this as a TRO violation, and the company doesnt play their trump card and drag us back to court. All this happens and the company goes to us with bags of additional money? Sounds logical.

How will you like it when a judge issues damages against us and we are now having to deduct a paycheck assessment to pay off Spirit management for the judgement? Don't think it can happen, has happened before in this industry.

I know you like to play Mr. Mom and drop your reserve days and stay home. And thats the TRUE reason you want this contract to fail. Hey, no harm. But thats your motivation, dont hide it as anything but that.

First- meltdown 2017 only resulted in a TRO because there were stupid actions and words done by stupid people. Only difference.

Second-you obviously have no idea who I am as when I was on reserve I maybe dropped a day once. Never played the game but I do love how you guys keep saying us no voters only do so because of some special situation involving gravy or laziness.

And you think that meltdown 2018 wont result in the same incriminating things to be posted on these very forums and WhatsApp threads? No way, same stuff will happen. We have too many guys who dont get the first rule of Fight Club.

Of course the same things will happen and the burden of proof is even lower against a pilot group currently with a cease and desist against them.

In the end, this TA passes BIGLY. So scream and yell, it passes and we move on.

I didn’t hear anything you said after “They did.”
He asked what airline has ever gotten full retro.
The answer is: Delta
They got it. End of story.

Except not really because the rest of his story is really the whole story.

1) They were less than 12 months past the amendable date

2) They were dealing with management that does not hate f$ck labor on a daily basis like ours does.

So you hear there were scare tactics in play last time around.
You weren't here, that's fine. But maybe now you're hearing only one side of the story. Accusations of "scare tactics" were made back then, and low and behold they're being made again now! :eek:
Pretty sure it's the same cast of characters making the same worn out accusations now, and it's still BS.

A totally legitimate question is asked. "What happens next if the TA is not ratified?" An honest answer has to recognize that there is some uncertainty. Nobody can predict the future.

How long to resume negotiations?
What demands will Spirit bring to the table when they do reconvene?
Will there be a change of personnel in the negotiating committee?
...nobody knows

Don't forget ExpressJet, Contract 2004. 2.5 years of 100% Retro. Oh, but earlier I was accused of being unrealistic.

That contract sure did set them up for success going forward. It is possible to vote yourself out of a job.

I don't even know what to say to that.

And what did XJT owe their pilots after that time? Maybe 20k? I'm sure you find it totally reasonable though that you should not only get a 80k pay raise but also keep all of your work rules and receive a 180k retro bonus to sign it in. Sorry your 70k bonus isn't enough, I hope you enjoy being at the bottom on the list at DL when you leave.......... oh wait

Hawaiian, 100% retro, plus 15% in the 401k.