Spirit or Frontier
 

Hey guys, I’m lucky enough to have offers from both. Trying to decide what would be the better choice. I’d be a commuter at both places but live within driving distance of DFW. Seems to me Spirit is the more established and stable airline but frontier may have greater upside due to getting in at the start of growth.

Curious to get a few opinions here. Think DFW will stick around for Spirit? That’s probably the biggest plus for me when it comes to NK.

I dont know about Spirit, but I talked to a fellow Frontier Pilot and he's upgrading after only 2.5 years with the company to Captain. Not sure what Spirit is like today?

When I talked to SF, she said not to get hung up or too attached to DFW, Spirit will open and close bases as it sees fit. But I don't think DFW is going away any time soon. ACY has hung around for a long time.

DFW is fairly senior. None of the captains are going anywhere, and a few senior FOs are bypassing until they can hold DFW captain, and there are a lot of FOs who took the upgrade and are waiting to bid back to DFW.

DFW used to be a large station with around 40 daily departures at its peak - as late as last year, but a lot of the flying has been reallocated around the system, and DFW is now down to 18 daily departures.

The daily departures will pick up as summer rolls around. Right now AA is doing their darndest to squeeze us with gates and will flood the E alley with RJ’s when they finish renovating the island.

DFW isn’t going anywhere, but I’m not sure thy want to challenge AA head on at this juncture at this base. Corporate strategies do change.

Spirit has invested significant money in the last 6 months upgrading not only the crew room but also the warehouse capacity for parts and spares due to all the new airframes coming. They're also still evaluating DFW and LAS for new maintenance hangers. Nothing is for sure in aviation but I can't see DFW going anywhere for Spirit.

Frontier is an inferior airline in just about every aspect. They're basically Spirit three years ago. I don't know if Indigo has any interest in improving the airline the way our board did but I would imagine they'll have to to remain competitive as our routes will inevitably begin to overlap more.

I think you'll upgrade at F9 faster but Indigo being my boss would give me pause. Congrats on the offers from both. You're in an good position.

Thanks for that good info. The fact that Frontier is where spirit was 3 years ago is what makes it attractive to me. I know it’s a gamble but if they make the same steps spirit has I’d be sitting real pretty there in 3 years. However right now Spirit is way more stable.

Our best domiciles with the most growth and movement are the ones that are not a hub for one of the big 3 (sans ACY bc it's too expensive to close).

So how do you feel about Florida?

The best thing for F9 would be to get away from Franke... it quite literally made this airline do a 180... obviously I’m a bit biased but don’t look at a two year upgrade and sprint towards it... think looooong term...spirit is safe and stable (for now) our product is light years better and getting better by the month...they really are FINALLY investing in the company...there are naysayers on here that say you’ll “never” upgrade without another order... that is true but it’s a foregone conclusion more jets are coming... we just don’t know what kind and when. Again my opinion is biased but if your looking to spend the rest of your days at one or the other... spirit is leaps and bounds the superior choice. Both pilot groups are filled with great guys and gals... good luck... your very lucky to be in such a position to have to choose between the two

Run from Frankie! Factor him in and that makes it real easy to go to NK. I was in the same position years ago and NK was the correct move!! We keep adding Airframes, waiting to hear if we picked up the A321's from WOW officially.

I don’t think we get any of those WOW aircraft. They’re all CFM engines, NEO included. I’d be surprised if the company was interested in having 4 different engine types.

If you have to ask, then Spirit isn’t right for you.

Spirit is the best kept secret in the industry,

We already got 2 of them.

The two that had IAE motors...


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Two? I saw 698. What's the other? (Besides the obvious 699)

Dfw is very senior. You won’t upgrade there for a very long time. Upgrade time is now 3.5 years and growing. We have no growth after 2021 yet. Rumor is announcement later this year. Prob a dif fleet. I’d choose frontier. Way more growth. Getting on at Frontier is like getting on a Spirit 3 years ago. You’ve missed the spirit boat. I’m almost 3 years and still 100 from upgrade. I’m estimating 3.5-4 years for me. New hires have NO UPGRADE in sight until we order more. So 6+ years maybe. Yes spirit is more established. But frontier has equal/better on some fronts contract and would be your better career choice. Besides we will prob merge soon anyway

Spirit would be a safer bet today with the assumption of more airplanes. Frontier would be a good dice roll just like a lot of us made a few years back here at Spirit. Our scope section leaves some openings that could be exploited for outsourcing in the future imo. What did frontier get for scope in their latest contract. Frontier is not a standalone company it’s one airline within a portfolio of airlines all owned by a private holding company not beholden to shareholders. Indigo will not hesitate to shrink, grow, or outsource frontier as they see fit if they can. Remember indigo ordered all those airplanes not frontier. Get a copy of section one of the frontier contract and read it like you were Franke and wanted to outsource frontier flying to the lowest bidder. Could you do it easily? If the answer is no I’d say frontier might be worth a dice roll if you’re willing to move. If the answer is yes, then don’t think twice and welcome to spirit while having your apps out.

What is driving distance to dfw? Would you normally fly and only drive if you had to? Factor that into the decision and that dfw is currently a dfw is a stagnant base.

Congratulations on both offers. I think unless you live and want to stay living in Florida it would be wise to continue to seek greener pastures if you are a new hire at either spirit or frontier. After some seniority insulation that decision might change but make a decision and then keep your apps updated. for now.

Easy decision for someone like myself who’s commuted most of his life.... Go to the airline that you can drive to work! Commuting sucks the life from your soul! And, if you have a nice car, driving to work can be even better!

Outsider here but my humble opinion is Spirit is not leaving DFW.

DFW is a 2:45 drive for me and about 8 direct flights. Denver also has around 8 direct flights. I’ve commuted my whole career. 2 out of 4 of my bases being 2 leg commutes, so I’m no stranger to commuting. Thanks for all the responses. It’s certainly a tough choice.

2:45 is a long drive and makes you really tight getting to work on a 3 hour call out.

With that said I’m 2:10 from dfw and couldn’t be happier. I haven’t gotten a 3 hour call yet, and it’s amazi just jumping in my car at the end of a trip. Totally worth the long drive.

Why? Do you assume AA, UA, or DL will merge too?

It's not just him, but analysts and CEO's alike think there will be more industry consolidation to come. Whether it's us and F9, unknown. I'd assume he's just making a WAG.

One thing that would help is my parents life halfway between me and DFW so I could sit reserve at their place.

I wasn't trying to attack him. I was genuinely curious why people think we would. My opinion is that we wouldn't. F9 and NK run two different airlines. F9 is more of an Allegiant 3 day a week service to everywhere and we're more of a leisure destination with higher frequency. The other hangup is that Indigio would want to sell at a premium and Spirit would want to buy at a discount. It would be like trying to trade in a car for retail and buying the new one at wholesale.

Not sure on dfw honestly. I will say if I was you I’d pick Frontier hands down. They have a new aircraft order and planned growth. I feel like our contracts are “similar” (I’m sure someone will point out the area’s I’m wrong in). But without a new aircraft order (which we don’t have) you won’t ever upgrade here. Good luck!


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F9 guy here...
Both Airlines have bottom of the barrel contracts. The good thing is that both are much closer to industry standard then few years back. So hopefully next round of negotiations both will be industry standard.
F9 still has a ways to go when it comes to improving its operation. If we do go public that will improve drastically because board of directors will not put up with the current practices. We are scheduled to have 215 airplanes by 2024 (I think we are around high 80s now). Indigo is not a high risk investors, so i don't see them moving airplanes around. Only thing that worries me is selling those frames to a higher bidder. Upgrades are running around 55-57%. That was the case for me when i upgraded and still is today. There is a strong rumor of a TX base possible this year (aus or Sat).
NK has great crews, they have been nothing but accommodating whenever i ride on them. I actually prefer to ride on them over most airlines.

LOL. So much Koolaid...

The “NK doesn’t have an aircraft order” angst is some of the silliest ****** I’ve seen. As though the music just stops in 2021 and Spirit will never grow again.

The business model is reliant on growing 15% a year. We’re picking up airframes wherever we can find them. That’s not indicative of a company that’s done with growth. Either Spirit will place an order and continue to grow organically, will be merged with someone with a bunch of slots in hand, might be bought by a legacy or the economy falls off a cliff and it’s all moot anyway.

Granted, I think they waited a bit too long and are scrambling to reach acceptable terms with production slots available on a timeline that NK would like. But I’m not worried about things just stopping cold in 20 months. That might mean aggressive vulturism as we see today or a separate fleet order. It doesn’t mean standing pat where we’re at.

I don’t think you can go wrong with either. I’d pick the one that has a base closest to where you want to live long term. As others have said the contracts are basically equally good/bad. Same airplanes. New order is coming at Spirit so I wouldn’t put too much weight into the big order at Frontier when choosing as Spirit isn’t just going to bow out and stop growing. More international flying and overnights at Spirit if that’s your thing. Single occupancy hotel during training at Spirit. Indigo has a reputation for being even more unfriendly to labor than Spirit. Other than that I dunno man. Personal preference. If I were you I’d take the first class date offered as they’re each basically the same thing.


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I didn't feel like you were attacking him, just making a comment. I agree with your assessment of F9.

🍻

Serious? All of those airlines have merged. The only 6 remaining major airlines that haven't merged yet: Hawaiian, jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country. The next mergers will involve these carriers.

Good. The written word is hard to decipher at times.

I can see Hawaiian and jetBlue benefiting from a merger (not necessarily together) but I can't see any benefit yet to the others. If Allegiant sheds their airline OPS I think it'll be through a sale to concentrate on the travel side. Merging gets them more of their side business.

I was in the Spirit hangar the other day and the guys working claimed they've been told we're getting 2 of them. Like everything around here I'll believe it when I see them at the gate.

I would love to believe that but I’ve been hearing that since we signed this new contract. I wouldn’t pick a company based off a “guess” that we will get more planes.



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Oh good grief.

Spirit mgt hasn’t deigned to let us in on their next fleet acquisition, and you think it might be because we won’t get more planes? Sure. Maybe if we’re bought or merged. Otherwise it’s going to happen short of the economy imploding.

http://https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a320-4270.htm

There is one of them! It’s painted too!

698 is here, acars on dmi because it thinks it’s in Europe with W6 flight numbers

401(k) etc ?
 

Hey guys

Does Spirit have a 401k ?
How much do they contribute into it ?
(this information on airlinepilotcentral page is not clear)
Any profit sharing, bonus checks ?


Thank you

Yes currently 12% Direct Contribution Goes up 1% every March 1st til it hits 15%.

Profit Sharing=No
Bonus Check=No