that or they break the trip up if it’s a 4 day. Give the single day to X or y then try to find a reserve from any base to fly the rest of the trip, mean while you miss out on a sweet 4 day with good layovers.

Same in DTW forced into bailing to attempt a better QOL. And I'm not the only one leaving DTW.

It's really remarkable to me that they chose pilot displacements at this time considering the turnover that's happening in the industry. It's my opinion that our management group is so driven by a spreadsheet that they have tremendously hurt our ability to turn a profit. For example, selling the 319's. Whatever their reason, AA and UA are running around in decades old 319's with CRT screens, much older than ours, and working them hard. I'm sure on a spreadsheet, they saw a way to gain some capital with the sale and remove some maintenance liabilities from the operation too. But, it wasn't too long ago AA was pulling 140's and 145's out of the desert to park on gates in DFW to keep us from growing there. So they sold off some planes, made a few bucks, but now we need them. We're parking planes left and right because of an "unforeseeable" issue with our NEO's. Our management is running away left and right from any competition with the big 4. They've lost their teeth. No bite.

Management displaced a bunch of pilots, radically changed our trip dynamics, and sold off a bunch of capacity. So now, we've essentially stagnated in the biggest hiring boom this industry has ever seen.

Which is exactly why I’ll be glad to see them go. These fools have been rudderless for a few years, just useless.

I’ll also add, they could have deferred these NEOs during Covid but instead committed to taking all of them (they admit now that wasn’t a good decision) while scheduling the 319 returns. So here we are, flying 319s back to the bank while moving brand new Neos to the ramps to sit engineless until 2024 or 2025.

These ARE the worst trips ever, I was assigned them often on DFW reserve. The circadian flip is tough enough but also good luck day sleeping at our selected hotels.

The way these pairings made you feel was awful. Very unhealthy.

What did the displacements accomplish exactly? Our DOT performance metrics are as bad as ever. LAS is a staffing quagmire with way more captains than first officers resulting in 40% or greater captains being on reserve in any month.

Now they are saying we are overstaffed for Q1 2024 and forward. I sure hope they offer LOA's so those of us who need a break from this place and its toxic management.

It’s called burning the furniture.

I will say I love the new trip mix. It’s much more even and the majority of the pilot group drives to work. We have a reasonable verity now compared to all min credit four days two years ago.

Oh man, I would love LOAs.

Normally I would say the paid LOAs we saw during Covid were going to be a once in a career event. But...I could see LOAs for CAs because of this engine issues. Furloughs only makes sense over a certain amount of time, a longer time frame, and we should not see that with these engines. Pratt said they are going to "make Spirit whole", whatever that means, so there would be money coming back (I assume) for the direct result of the groundings.

So it would not surprise me to take a few hundred CAs off the books for 4-6 months of 2024 while they deal with this, for some LOA pay, knowing that its cheaper than being over staffed, cheaper than furloughs, and cheaper if you can have a financial line item (LOA pilots on leave cost) to present to Pratt on the economic impacts. As for FOs, still way too much churn with attrition to allow any to take LOAs.

Sign me up.

A few of us were positing the same thoughts the other day, between NEO engines and then depending on the merger timeline it’s possible there could be over staffing as yellow draws down and pilots and crew are incrementally moved to blue ops. I’d happily sit that out on covid LOA terms and jump on the last car of the train once they have all the kinks worked out.

Ive heard of people at the Big 4 doing this for premium pay to boost their credit. Is there actually a monetary benefit to doing it at Spirit, or are you dropping and rebuilding purely for a better schedule?

No other major airline has the reserve grid language or drop-to-zero language that we have at Spirit. Once a lineholder here, there is NO other place to experience the flexibility you have here. Are the other parts of our CBA industry leading? HELL NO. But scheduling flexibility, it is.

Every month I usually am awarded 15-18 days off crediting 70-72 hours holding some/most of the days I want off, off. By the end of the month, after rebuilding by entire schedule and listing for premium, I average 18.5 days off and 103 credit on average. Getting EVERY day that I want off, off.

Speaking for myself, mostly for a better schedule. However, I also look for trips that credit more per day so that I end up earning more in addition to getting the days off I want.

I am senior enough that I get the schedule I want awarded. But when I get calls to work on my days off to work for 200%, I will sometimes say yes, and often drop the next trip to keep days worked same, but still get extra credit. Just got called for an X trip. 42 hours credit, leave Saturday early afternoon, home Monday morning, as a commuter. I have seen plenty of things better at other places. Our premium and commute policy are good....

Does this continue post merger? Would love to see that part of Spirit carry over in a JCBA

I appreciate it, have an interview next month so I am trying to soak up everything I can about the company.

Commute policy is great to hear about. Im an IAH guy but heard thats still pretty senior so it will be the JS for me for a bit if I get picked up.

Who knows. We’ll find out soon enough tho.

It’s a non-starter for NKs NC during negotiations and there is no reason it won’t be the same when the JCBA talks begin.

Currently, New hires are getting IAH while still in training.

You’ll get IAH before you’re completely done with training if you want it. Everyone initially gets LAS, but then next month you should have no issues being able to bid and hold IAH

You're making it sound better and better! haha, thanks for the insight. Looking forward to interviewing

I love your explanation of QoL benefits at NK, and would love to work under those rules. But there are two counter-points I'd like to make:

1) That will all end when JB takes you over.

2) Your QoL comes at a price... about 86.5% of what a Delta pilot enjoys, plus PS. So yes, you probably have more time off, but you're also making a lot less overall, working for about 75% of what the "big boys" make.

Money isn't everything, but it DOES pay the bills. As long as one has a separate source of income, your work rules would make for a great way of life!

The NK X trips and JB VDA trips are great, once one achieves enough seniority to hold them (requires more seniority at JB than is does at NK).

:p We all don't suffer from little dick syndrome..... I make plenty of money and choose when I work. I'm good.

These arguments are all very interesting. No one at NK is going hungry or homeless for that matter. Everyone enjoys money, but how do you quantify Christmas with the fam, anniversary with the spouse, new years with friends, etc..? Making all that money and no way to enjoy it when it matters most.

Not throwing shade, that POV always left me scratching my head

Exactly.

For me personally, I do not live to serve corporate overlords. The beautiful thing about Spirit is you have a choice, though. If you are after money, you can hustle and out-earn your peers at other airlines, or chill out and focus on other things in life. Credit a bunch one month, and go backpack around Europe the next.

Just about every pilot I've talked to wishes we'd just stay Spirit.

Give me a break. The percentage of NK pilots working Christmas or New Year's, or your wife's anniversary is the same at JB and NK, and directly proportional to the amount of flying each airline does on that day of the year. SOMEONE has to fly Christmas. SOMEONE has to fly New Year's. SOMEONE has to fly weekends. SOMEONE has to fly Oct 11th.

Of course, but with some seniority, you can play the game and to get those days off. Not even that much seniority either to be able to play said game.

I spoke to a retired UA guy and he said that in his 20+ years at UA, he never got Christmas off. Since only 4 lines had the 25th off, the top 4 pilots in base would get it. At Spirit, I’ve spoken to pilots who are sub 10 years on property holding the major holidays off.

I know how QOL is hard to see with all those Benjamins in the way, but it’s there, Bluedriver.

Here we go again, the same argument of "just trust me bro, you never have to work holidays because reasons and you can put earn your peers at other airlines" which I just don't believe.

My first year here, I was able to drop my reserve days over the Christmas holiday. 2 numbers from the bottom….

Until your base is shrunk and you're displaced. Ask the DTW, ORD, and DFW guys how much they enjoy being commuters now.

Wonderful QOL from the only airline to displace pilots in what, the last decade?

JB 12+ years. Have NEVER worked a Christmas or Easter. I've sometimes CHOSE to work a thanksgiving because I choose, for my own reasons, with my own strategy. I've never worked a 4th of July, although I screwed up my bid (didn't realize it would hit me with a carry-out from June) once and was scheduled to work one, but it was with a check airmen, and was bought.

Your own example proves my point. If only 4 lines had the 25th off for this United pilot, only 4 pilots got it off (not counting reserves). If that were ever true at Spirit, the same proportion of guys would HAVE to work Christmas. The flights WILL be covered. The proportion of JB, NK and UAL pilots with Christmas off is the same, and directly proportional to the amount of flying the airline does that day.

You're missing a basic understanding of airline scheduling.

I think the point is that yes the flights get covered but often by those that choose to do it. I don’t come across many that are working those days bc they simply are unable to get them off. I’m sure a few are but it’s not many.

I don’t think this is true at all. I think the vast majority of the pilot group have no confidence in this management group to run an airline, have less than zero interest working for anything owned by indigo and absolutely cannot wait for this merger to close with a JCBA that captures the best of both contracts’ work rules with legacy compensation. No one wishes to stay spirit unless they are age 60+ and don’t need the hassle in the last years before retirement.

I get your point, but what I’m trying to say is that we, as a collective group, enjoy major holidays off more regularly at a lower seniority than our peers at JB, UA, and such. Whether it be by having those days awarded, adding, dropping, or swapping to get the holidays off.

I have yet to meet a NK pilot that would prioritize money over QOL. Luckily, our set up allows us to work as little or as much as we want.

I want both! The red/green ARBITRATED language is set in store and with DTZ is a non negotiable.

That’s no excuse for being compensated less. No excuse!

I'm one of those people that chooses to work Christmas. I'm single with no kids and a relatively small extended family. We don't do much. As a senior FO I could easily get Christmas Eve off and then whatever pairing I wanted starting Christmas Day. It's one less pilot with a family possibly forced to work on Christmas and I get a little extra pay.

Speaking of pay, one thing that needs to be majorly improved his holiday pay. I think the new United TA is an additional 5 hours and they have several more holidays.

1000%! No reason for us not to be paid more than we are now and keep our QOL!

Even my old regional had 200% on holidays worked and Super Bowl was considered a holiday. Our holiday pay needs serious improvements for sure

You'll take your 75 bucks and be happy!! Agreed, this needs to change.

Our holiday pay is insultingly bad. That definitely needs to change.

I'm also one of those who doesn't mind working the holidays. But, the point was we get a CHOICE. Not everyone wants the same thing. That's the thing that Bluedriver consistently doesn't understand while trying to lecture us about how airline scheduling works. Our scheduling rules are far superior to JetBlue's. He just doesn't get it because he's been Stockholm Syndrome'd into thinking that's how it has to be.

At every airline on the planet they need a certain number of pilots to work on Christmas. Lets say 500. At every other airline there are going to be more people that want that day off than are able to get it off. At most other airlines the pilots who want that day off bid it and can either hold it off or cannot and go to work. And yet at Spirit because you are able to trade trips around better than others that somehow means no one who wants a holiday off has to work on a holiday? It literally doesn't matter if the way a pilot is forced to fly on a holiday is determined by bidding, reserves coverage, trip swapping, a lottery, a singing contest, or a gladiatorial fight to the death. The fact is those trips have to be covered, and there will always be more people who want those days off then can get them. How is that math so difficult? I like Spirits DTZ and grid rules, but some of you deny the math behind holiday coverage, and act like everyone else is crazy, and it drives me insane.