Originally Posted by onedolla (Post 3708238)

I am loving your optimism, and I know you’ve been at one regional before here, but there’s a pretty good bet you’ll be disappointed in the power of our NK vote. You’re assuming our group is 100% united and that we haven’t sold anything for a $ before…

And as for your genius reserve rule reworks, YOU should be emailing reps that as well. I know you’re bright enough to know what the J in JCBA stands for.

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3708636)

So much to unpack, but I’ll keep it short.

1) Reserve rules, grid rules, and DTZ go together. Not under the same provision under the CBA, but affects how DTZ to utilized. This was explained by me in details in one of the threads in the JB forum.

2) I’ve said that we have senior folks bidding reserve too because they won’t get called, but you won’t acknowledge that statement.

3) According to you, my regional was more professional than NK because said regional had very similar reserve rules to JB. You know who got to drop/swap/add, very few people because it was a free for all between reserves and lineholders. Having been there and done that, I’m not interested. Language will be VERY important in whatever we get.

4) Before you get your panties in a bunch again, I’ll say that if we can make DTZ work with good reserve rules that make sense, I’m all for it. This is something I’ve stated 5 pages back, but you enjoy arguing in between flights.

Originally Posted by Tornado875 (Post 3708642)

I don't think anyone actively wants DTZ to go away, its just as we compare reserve rules you are now trying to convince the blue 2/3rds of the combined airline to vote for DTZ at the cost of reserve QOL/flexibility and I think Blue and One are saying thats not likely to fly. At best you will find apathy/ mild interest towards DTZ on the bigger Blue side of the fence. IMO/Your results will vary.

Originally Posted by Tornado875 (Post 3708642)

I don't think anyone actively wants DTZ to go away, its just as we compare reserve rules you are now trying to convince the blue 2/3rds of the combined airline to vote for DTZ at the cost of reserve QOL/flexibility and I think Blue and One are saying thats not likely to fly. At best you will find apathy/ mild interest towards DTZ on the bigger Blue side of the fence. IMO/Your results will vary.

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3708636)

So much to unpack, but I’ll keep it short.

1) Reserve rules, grid rules, and DTZ go together. Not under the same provision under the CBA, but affects how DTZ to utilized. This was explained by me in details in one of the threads in the JB forum.

2) I’ve said that we have senior folks bidding reserve too because they won’t get called, but you won’t acknowledge that statement.

3) According to you, my regional was more professional than NK because said regional had very similar reserve rules to JB. You know who got to drop/swap/add, very few people because it was a free for all between reserves and lineholders. Having been there and done that, I’m not interested. Language will be VERY important in whatever we get.

4) Before you get your panties in a bunch again, I’ll say that if we can make DTZ work with good reserve rules that make sense, I’m all for it. This is something I’ve stated 5 pages back, but you enjoy arguing in between flights.

Originally Posted by vegabondpilot (Post 3708722)

DTZ is industry standard. It should be non-negotiable. If it's not in the JCBA that would be a huge fail on the MEC and pilot groups. Recall worthy.

The grid rules are what make NK's awesome schedule flexibility happen. It's hard fought and arbitrated language and would insanely foolish to give that up. Recall worthy as well.

There's no reason we can't keep all of that and have industry leading pay. JetBlue guys acting like they're going to sell NK's superior contract for standard pay is complete loserthink.

Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght (Post 3708662)

And it’s been explained that reserve doesn’t have to be miserable for DTZ to function. Nor did it become that at NK out of necessity for it to be that way.

Originally Posted by vegabondpilot (Post 3708722)

DTZ is industry standard. It should be non-negotiable. If it's not in the JCBA that would be a huge fail on the MEC and pilot groups. Recall worthy.

The grid rules are what make NK's awesome schedule flexibility happen. It's hard fought and arbitrated language and would insanely foolish to give that up. Recall worthy as well.

There's no reason we can't keep all of that and have industry leading pay. JetBlue guys acting like they're going to sell NK's superior contract for standard pay is complete loserthink.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708736)

Miserable is subjective, but your own guy (SoFlo) is saying that RSVs can't be allowed to have drop/swap because it would make DTZ worth very little (paraphrasing). So should I believe him or you?

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3708743)

Well, me. DTZ and better reserve rules are simply not mutually exclusive. Yet there are those who think it’s somehow the right thing to barter away QOL and payscale of new hires for other things in the contract for the senior people. That isn’t exclusive to NK,
Hawaiian and UPS have a long legacy of screwing their newbies as well, but that sentiment exists at NKamong some of the senior people as well. Not really hazing even, just a sense that their seniority entitles them to maximize things for them rather than for the group as a whole. My opinion, anyway.

Originally Posted by Forward lav (Post 3708752)

stop feeding into the singular argument of DTZ. It’s pathetic. The circular argument has been happening for over a year. It’s done by scared people worried about their negotiation position in an SLI. The “new” QOL argument is BS too. You’re at spirit for the same reason we are at JB….. they called.

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3708769)

Nonsense. We want the best of both worlds in the JCBA. We aren’t going to get that with mutual ignorance of what is in the other guys contract and how it works. I don’t personally give the north end of a southbound rat about the SLI because it’s going to wind up within 5% of how the AS-VX SLI went in any event which if I recall correctly was something like 60% DOH and 40% RS.

And the last thing a combined pilot group needs is to not be able to present a united front to management on the JCBA because we are too damn worried about the SLI or too ignorant of the value of the things in the other company’s contract.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708738)

DTZ is not "industry standard". But giving up DTZ hasn't really been part of this discussion in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by vegabondpilot (Post 3708840)

It absolutely is industry standard. JetBlue is the only major that doesn't have it as far as I know.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708847)

Just asked a good friend at United. He said no.

Waiting on a friend from Delta, but I already know the answer.

​​​​​

Originally Posted by vegabondpilot (Post 3708848)

I have a family member and like 5 friends who fly for UA and they can DTZ, the issue is they never can because there isn't adequate reserve coverage. Hence, why NK's grid rules are good.

Originally Posted by vegabondpilot (Post 3708848)

I have a family member and like 5 friends who fly for UA and they can DTZ, the issue is they never can because there isn't adequate reserve coverage. Hence, why NK's grid rules are good.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708853)

Ok, here's where I'm at. I don't think you are correct that DTZ is "industry standard". But I'm also not sure, and don't give any farts either way. This wasn't really a discussion about dropping it or not. Whether it stays will be based on survey responses, and other factors. But that wasn't the discussion you chimed in on.

Originally Posted by biigD (Post 3708863)

The question I have is that clearly NK is still covering their schedule with these grid rules - are they just carrying far more reserves than everyone else? How does it work?

Originally Posted by vegabondpilot (Post 3708877)

Which I think makes for a happy and productive pilot group.

Originally Posted by biigD (Post 3708883)

I agree - I wish we could reliably do it! But I wonder why other unions can't find a way to work this level of flexibility into their contracts - I can't imagine Spirit is carrying more pilots for a given amount of block hours of flying, or maybe they are? But if not, it just doesn't seem like something that should cost the company a lot of money if the metal continues to move, and as you said it'd result in a much happier and productive pilot group.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708736)

Miserable is subjective, but your own guy (SoFlo) is saying that RSVs can't be allowed to have drop/swap because it would make DTZ worth very little (paraphrasing). So should I believe him or you?

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3708902)

I mentioned how reserves can be better. I never said that it shouldn’t be improved upon. I did mention how it is now and how that benefits the pilot group as a whole.

As I mentioned before, reserve rules should be improved. No doubt. How it’s improved will determine how DTZ is utilized (albeit, things like language and grid rules matter a lot too).

At NK, we have different windows for processing add/drop/swap request in seniority order before going to FCFS for the rest of the month. I offered to explain it to you, but didn’t accept. So, now you’re worried about DTZ going out of seniority order and I’m saying that both can be accomplished since it’s currently being done at NK.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3708906)

We have the ADD/DROP/SWAP windows as well. And RSVs can participate in those in seniority order, and drop or swap their RSV days.

Originally Posted by Bluediver (Post 3709141)

It works so fantastic in fact that 59% of the requests made for November were denied due to reserve coverage on the first FCFS window. Now that doesn’t mean that the reserves who are currently able to drop in that window did because looking at the grid before the window closed will show many days where reserve was at or below min before the window opened when the award came out. This language in which you must be green 75% of the time to start and getting rid of our very messy multiple grids and multiple days nonsense would be a good place to start.

Originally Posted by Lincoln Osiris (Post 3708900)

What people here fail to mention is that yes 75% prior to initial open time must be green. However, a day is "green" if there is 1 or more excess of pilots needed to cover that day. So say you have 75% green with every one of those green by only 1 and then the most senior pilot in initial drops his entire schedule that was on all of those green days. Guess what? The entire grid is now red for the rest of the 99.99% in base. Has this happened? Not that I've seen, but it's something that could. So its not as concrete orgasmic work rule as the NK cheerleaders like to make it out to be.

Originally Posted by Noisecanceller (Post 3709248)

This is incorrect. They cannot just make it green by 1. The numbers are arbitrary. The starting green spread is based on historical averages which. This language was tested and won in arbitration

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3709203)

Yes, those two provisions are absolutely MANDATORY.

1. Keeping NK Green grid rules.

2. Getting rid of the JB multiple reserve grid catastrophe that was snuck in in first cba.

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3709266)

Can you explain this further?

Originally Posted by Bluediver (Post 3709299)

Anyone else care to take this? I’m too beaten by the grids themselves to explain it. It certainly wasn’t snuck in. It was deliberate and I personally was lied to by my former Rep when specifically asking the hard question about the 1,2,3 and 4 day wording in the CBA. Ignorance and or “we didn’t think they’d do that.” Is no excuse for 5 years of garbage.

Originally Posted by Noisecanceller (Post 3709248)

This is incorrect. They cannot just make it green by 1. The numbers are arbitrary. The starting green spread is based on historical averages which. This language was tested and won in arbitration

Originally Posted by Lincoln Osiris (Post 3709330)

Very good point I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by PNWFlyer (Post 3709345)

then why do you all even bid if everyone can drop to zero? Why doesn’t the airline just have everyone pick up open time and save the hassle?

Originally Posted by JulesWinfield (Post 3709371)

Because if you’re senior enough, you get what you want. It’s not that hard to understand.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3709387)

I still don't really understand. Even if you're just middle seniority, the trips in open time are almost never better than what I got in the bid. Maybe last second, but certainly not weeks ahead of time. How are the "good" trips sitting in open time weeks in advance?

Originally Posted by Tranquility (Post 3709427)

It happens, believe me as a mid-seniority bidder. One man’s trash is another’s treasure. Sometimes it’s a commuter who finds a better trip in Dallas instead of Houston, thus creating a nice Houston trip for someone to swap/add…. On that note, out of base adds and swaps MUST stay!

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3709387)

I still don't really understand. Even if you're just middle seniority, the trips in open time are almost never better than what I got in the bid. Maybe last second, but certainly not weeks ahead of time. How are the "good" trips sitting in open time weeks in advance?

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3709387)

Even if you're just middle seniority, the trips in open time are almost never better than what I got in the bid. Maybe last second, but certainly not weeks ahead of time. How are the "good" trips sitting in open time weeks in advance?

Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo (Post 3709458)

Personally, I drop to 45-50 hours every 3-4 months just to "reset" from work and get away from the nonsense.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver (Post 3709387)

I still don't really understand. Even if you're just middle seniority, the trips in open time are almost never better than what I got in the bid. Maybe last second, but certainly not weeks ahead of time. How are the "good" trips sitting in open time weeks in advance?