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Logbook entry clarification

Old 12-13-2021, 05:05 AM
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Default Logbook entry clarification

I flew a Piper Cheyenne for a few hours before I was a multi-engine pilot. It's my understanding that I can log the time as 'total time' only because I was the one manipulating the controls. However it cannot count as multi engine time or any other category besides 'total time'.

Is this correct?
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Old 12-13-2021, 07:45 PM
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That is not correct.

If you were not the pilot in command or could not log PIC under 14 CFR 61.51, then you would need to either show it as instruction received (with an instructor signature), or SIC, if you were qualified based on the type of operation (the Cheyenne is a single pilot airplane, so the only requirement for a SIC would be based on the type of operations: eg, Part 135....which you couldn't be flying for if you didn't hold a multi engine rating).

You can log the time..but without a legal basis, and that's not a very good idea.

Total time must have a category of time that qualifies to log the time in the first place, and you weren't PIC or rated (and thus can't log PIC as sole manipulator), haven't indicated you were receiving instruction, and weren't SIC in an operation that legally required a SIC. There's no basis to log the time.

Someone told you that you could log time in a multi engine airplane, but not log multi-time? Hopefully that person wasn't an instructor.
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Old 12-13-2021, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post

Total time must have a category of time that qualifies to log the time in the first place, and you weren't PIC or rated (and thus can't log PIC as sole manipulator), haven't indicated you were receiving instruction, and weren't SIC in an operation that legally required a SIC. There's no basis to log the time.
Technically, I think you can log "total time", because I don't think that's actually defined by the FAA. Obviously don't try to apply that time towards a cert, rating, or currency.

I agree it's not a good idea if you weren't serving as a FAR crewmember of some sort, or getting dual. Employers might consider that sketchy.
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Old 12-14-2021, 10:13 AM
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Total time is the duration of the flight...but what was the flight? It has to be something. It can't simply be total time.

14 CFR 61.51(b): https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1...t-61/subpart-A

A log entry must contain general information (date, location, total time, aircraft type and identification, etc); type of pilot experience or training (solo, PIC, SIC, or instruction received); and conditions of flight (day, night, instrument, etc).

To log the time, it must include not only general information (which includes total time) per 61.51(b)(1), but also include type of pilot experience per 61.51(b)(2). This means that the person logging total time must explain what kind of pilot experience made up that total time and classify it as either solo, pilot in command, second in command, or instruction received.

A log entry is incomplete without specifying the aircraft type. Clearly logging 1 hour of total time without specifying what type aircraft, or identifying the aircraft, would be ridiculous. Was it a helicopter? Tailwheel airplane, Multi engine airplane? It had to be in something, and the regulation states that the aircraft type, and identification (N-number, etc) must be included in the log entry.

If one logs 1.0 hours in a Cheyenne, one must still state where the flight occurred, and when. With this added, the log entry, according to 14 CFR 61.51(b), is still incomplete. Unless one is logging passenger time (no such classification in 61.51), then one is logging pilot time. That's the purpose of a pilot logbook. Accordingly, the regulation stipulates that one must note what kind of pilot time has occurred; what classification of pilot experience does this log entry represent? Was the pilot flying the aircraft solo? Was the pilot in command and able to log it as pilot in command? Was the pilot second in command, either in an aircraft type certificated for more than one crew member, or operated under regulations that required a second in command (and the pilot qualified to log that time)? Was the pilot receiving instruction? If so, the pilot will need the endorsement of the instructor. Without stipulating the type of pilot experience that the total time represents, logging total time is an incomplete entry, and has no basis for logging, in the regulation.
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Old 12-15-2021, 07:38 AM
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Not that easy. There's nothing that says you *cannot* log total time of any sort, FAA doesn't care what you put in your book, only how you use it WRT aeronautical experience or currency requirements.

Also for example safety pilot is not PIC, SIC, solo, or dual received (is a "required crewmember").

Also 61.57... lets say you have neither a complex or high-perf endorsement but your buddy does. But you both have an ASEL PPL and are both landing current. You both go up together in his centurion, and he lets you make three landings. Does that reset your ASEL landing currency?

Yup. He's PIC and you can be sole manipulator. You need endorsements to be PIC but not to manipulate the controls. Is that what the FAA intended, maybe not but that's what the reg says.

Could you log that? Yup.

FARs do not paint a consistent implied picture about logging total time, and do not address it explicitly either.

Again, all that said, I would encourage aspiring professionals to only log time which is generally accepted in industry, ie FAR or OPSPEC Solo, PIC, SIC, Dual, or "required crewmember"
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Old 12-15-2021, 07:56 PM
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You can log anything you like, I could have logged seat 30D today.
There is however a caveat.
Which is what you count towards the application of a certificate or rating.
To the OP: forget about logging the time if there is no legal basis to do so.
You have an interview coming up, donít sink yourself by trying to pass experience for loggable time.
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Old 12-15-2021, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Not that easy. There's nothing that says you *cannot* log total time of any sort, FAA doesn't care what you put in your book, only how you use it WRT aeronautical experience or currency requirements.
A logbook is a legal document. There are numerous cases in which the act of doing something is not illegal, but the act of logging it is. A private pilot ma not act for compensation or hire, for example. The private pilot performs a service, takes no payment for the service, and only logs the time. The FAA has determined that the logging of time has intrinsic value and is thus compensation. Logging of time has ramification for recording experience toward any certificate or rating, as well as recency of experience, and falsification of a logbook likewise carries penalties up to and including revocation or suspension of pilot certification and/or privilege.

Yes, one can log time in purple airplanes, log time in passenger seat 9E of a 737 flying overhead while one is eating a chilli dog in a pink convertible while double parked against traffic on fifth avenue on the third Tuesday in May, or time spent thinking of the letter Q. Let's not pretend ignorance nor stupidity, however. We're talking about logging pilot time, and the regulation is clear on logging pilot time. If one is going to take the trouble to ask if one can log the time, setting aside the stupidity of wildly logging anything and everything with zero basis or legal definition, let's constrain ourselves to the act of making a legal, appropriate log entry. There's no such basis for logging total time in an aircraft for which one is not rated, when it is neither PIC nor SIC, nor instruction received.

[QUOTE=rickair7777;3336101
Also for example safety pilot is not PIC, SIC, solo, or dual received (is a "required crewmember").
[/QUOTE]

"Safety pilot" is not a category of logged time. Simply put, one is either PIC or SIC, or receiving instruction with the appropriate endorsement of an instructor, or solo.

A safety pilot may be the pilot in command, or may log pilot in command. We can have a separate, extended discussion about logging SIC time if the thread wishes to go in that direction, but a safety pilot may be the pilot in command by assignment or agreement, and thus log pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember under the regulations under which the flight is conducted, but that has to do with the requirement for a safety pilot, and the agreement of the pilot's involved. A safety pilot may merely be the second in command, and thus unable to log PIC. If one is going to log that time, when acting as safety pilot, by necessity of the regulation, it must be PIC, or SIC, as one of the components of a logbook entry include the type of pilot experience, and pilot experience is solo, PIC, SIC, or instruction received.

"Safety pilot" is not a type of pilot experience under 14 CFR 61.51(e). One could be pilot in command or second in command of a flight as safety pilot, but if one is going to log the time, one must state the type of pilot experience. Which of the types of experience one may log depends on the specifics of the operation in which one has been a safety pilot; it could be PIC or SIC.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Also 61.57... lets say you have neither a complex or high-perf endorsement but your buddy does. But you both have an ASEL PPL and are both landing current. You both go up together in his centurion, and he lets you make three landings. Does that reset your ASEL landing currency?

Yup. He's PIC and you can be sole manipulator. You need endorsements to be PIC but not to manipulate the controls. Is that what the FAA intended, maybe not but that's what the reg says.
There is a difference between ACTING as pilot in command, and LOGGING pilot in command.

To log the time as pilot in command, one must be rated in the aircraft. One may be without the proper endorsement for a high performance aircraft or complex aircraft, but an endorsement is not a rating. It's an endorsement. One may be without that endorsement, and still log the time, because if one holds a private pilot certificate, with single engine land category and class privilege, one is rated in the airplane. One may log the time as PIC, but one may not ACT as PIC. Acting as PIC, and logging PIC, are not the same thing. One be act as PIC (which means one is the pilot in command), yet be unable to log the time. One may be able to log the time as PIC, but be unable to ACT as PIC. Acting as PIC and logging PIC are different things, and should not be confused.

A private pilot who does not hold an endorsement for high perfornace or complex, or conventional gear (tailwheel), may log time in aircraft that require those endorsements, as sole manipulator of the controls, if the pilot is rated in the aircraft (eg, airplane, single engine land), even though one cannot act as pilot in command in those aircraft. Conversely, one might be the pilot in command of such as aircraft on a day VFR flight, but be unable to log the time. But that's not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is a pilot who is NOT rated in the aircraft. That person cannot log the time as sole manipulator of the controls. That person cannot be safety pilot. That person is not qualified in the aircraft and does not hold category or class ratings, and thus can't act as PIC, or log PIC. Nor can that person log SIC in the aircraft. As pilot experience must be included in the log entry (not simply "total time," then the only other possibility for logging time in an aircraft for which one is not rated is instruction received. One can't be solo (one isn't rated), and thus to log the time one will need to show it as instruction received, and this with the endorsement of a qualified, appropriately rated instructor.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
FARs do not paint a consistent implied picture about logging total time, and do not address it explicitly either.

Again, all that said, I would encourage aspiring professionals to only log time which is generally accepted in industry, ie FAR or OPSPEC Solo, PIC, SIC, Dual, or "required crewmember"
The regulation absolutely does paint a consistent picture of logging time, as does the plethora of FAA Chief Legal Counsel letters of interpretation that are freely available to anyone who wishes to lift a finger to read them and learn for himself or herself. Moreover, both do explicitly address the subject..

One may not understand the regulation, but this is not an indictment on the regulation, but the individual who has not taken the time to learn the regulation, it's interpretation, and it's application. One may be ignorant of the regulation, but one is still required to abide the regulation, as just with all regulation or law, ignorance is not an excuse.

One who logs time in an aircraft for which one holds no rating will certainly be perceived as ignorant, and yet, without excuse.
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