Vectors to final
10-30-2015, 07:47 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
It's not. When the controller issued a vector, the controller took responsibility for traffic and terrain separation. The vector was at 2,800 and heading 120. The next clearance provided a new altitude; cross TELEX at or above 2100. Descent may be commenced upon receipt of that clearance to cross TELEX at 2100 or higher.
The controller could not issue a lower altitude, even a crossing altitude as the new limit, while on a vector, unless that altitude was possible between the point of issuance and the crossing (TELEX), and that altitude is above MVA.
The original poster was cleared down to 2100' and could have descended to and maintained that altitude to cross TELEX. It's pilots discretion on the descent in this case; descent can be commenced at
any time to cross TELEX at or above 2100.
MSA is an emergency altitude and while on vectors for the approach, is irrelevant.
The controller could not issue a lower altitude, even a crossing altitude as the new limit, while on a vector, unless that altitude was possible between the point of issuance and the crossing (TELEX), and that altitude is above MVA.
The original poster was cleared down to 2100' and could have descended to and maintained that altitude to cross TELEX. It's pilots discretion on the descent in this case; descent can be commenced at
any time to cross TELEX at or above 2100.
MSA is an emergency altitude and while on vectors for the approach, is irrelevant.
MSA may not restrict a pilot or controller during vectors, but I wouldn't say it's irrelevant.
10-30-2015, 09:21 PM
#22
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
I agree with your analysis. However, since the clearance was not what I would consider the "standard" hand off to intercept and commence an ILS, I still would query the controller if I got the same thing tomorrow.
MSA may not restrict a pilot or controller during vectors, but I wouldn't say it's irrelevant.
MSA may not restrict a pilot or controller during vectors, but I wouldn't say it's irrelevant.
I brief MSA for departure and arrival, but it's a reference number, as most vectoring in the terminal area, especially vectors to final, and the approach itself, will be below MSA in many cases. If an emergency occurs, it may become necessary or useful.
In the case of the situation on which this thread is based, the captain who insisted on the previously assigned altitude based on MSA didn't seem to be aware that he was already below MSA.
10-30-2015, 10:17 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 177
Vectors to final
Be safe but The "Captain" is an amateur. Would he require a climb to 8000 to fly from Long Beach to LAX where the MSA is something like 7700'?
Sent from ...
Sent from ...
Last edited by Cruz Clearance; 10-30-2015 at 10:55 PM.
10-30-2015, 11:02 PM
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 32
A Cross at or above is a essentially a pilot's discretion descent. No different than any en route clearance to cross a fix at or above a certain altitude. The fact that it was on an approach and you were expecting "maintain xxx thousand feet cleared approach" is what made it confusing. It was a legit clearance. Your captain was incorrect.
10-31-2015, 12:52 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 177
Vectors to final
I re-read the OP. You said you were on a vector to intercept the LOC. Unless you were issued a clearance to descend to 2100 you should have maintained your cleared altitude until you were established on a segment of the approach, then maintained at or above 2100 until crossing TELEX. It may have been a controller error/terminology.
Captain was correct but nothing to do with MSA.
Captain was correct but nothing to do with MSA.
10-31-2015, 07:30 AM
#28
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by Cruz Clearance
I re-read the OP. You said you were on a vector to intercept the LOC. Unless you were issued a clearance to descend to 2100 you should have maintained your cleared altitude until you were established on a segment of the approach, then maintained at or above 2100 until crossing TELEX. It may have been a controller error/terminology.
Captain was correct but nothing to do with MSA.
Captain was correct but nothing to do with MSA.
11-01-2015, 05:39 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: PA-18, Front
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Tummy
... I was under the impression that the instruction to cross TELEX at or above 2,100' meant that I could start down to 2,100'...
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