Forced Union/ form a new one
03-23-2023, 12:53 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 147
Forced Union/ form a new one
I am not very familiar with unions specifically how to get out of one and form a new one. When I was hired, I was working for about a year before I was told that I was part of a union. The pilot group which is about 20 of us are lumped into another professional union. I pay no union dues, never been asked to, and have never been contacted by my union rep at time of hire or any other time and just found out who our rep is. The CBA is written for people who work regular scheduled hours and if applied to pilots they are not following the CBA haven't paid overtime, provided meals and scheduled more days than what the CBA says. The pilot group was always under the impression that we were FLSA exempt, but per HR response we are hourly employees. Our bonus is also capped at 5 percent instead of ten percent, it was explained to me the reason for the cap is because we're in the union. The cap is costing each pilot about 5,000 a year but we are taxed on the full ten percent and our paycheck stub doesn't show where the capped 5 percent goes. Thats a lot of money for no real representation.
Our working conditions have deteriorated, and the pilots want out of the union and not lumped in with someone else, but the non-pilots won't vote to change unions. We are reaching out to the union to have a discussion about changes to the CBA to cover the pilot group but are very concerned we will not be treated fairly and fear retaliation. Can the pilots opt out of the union then form their own or are we stuck in the union that doesn't represent us at all? If we opt out and join another, is it possible with such a small group of pilots? How long does normally take to negotiate and whole new CBA for our group if that's the best path. Thanks for any input and advice.
Our working conditions have deteriorated, and the pilots want out of the union and not lumped in with someone else, but the non-pilots won't vote to change unions. We are reaching out to the union to have a discussion about changes to the CBA to cover the pilot group but are very concerned we will not be treated fairly and fear retaliation. Can the pilots opt out of the union then form their own or are we stuck in the union that doesn't represent us at all? If we opt out and join another, is it possible with such a small group of pilots? How long does normally take to negotiate and whole new CBA for our group if that's the best path. Thanks for any input and advice.
03-24-2023, 03:47 PM
#2
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,785
Seems like you should be able to switch unions (or maybe out) since you're a totally different craft with different issues across the board. I don't know the legal ins and outs though.
03-25-2023, 07:15 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 147
Union
We are definitely in a union, HR responded to my questions about overtime etc with copy of the CBA and confirmed we are non exempt. and who to contact with union. I called had a brief conversation union rep and am still trying set up a meeting with him and pilot group but no progress so far.
03-25-2023, 06:27 PM
#6
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,211
I'm finding this one hard to swallow.
You're employed as an aviator, as part of a collective bargaining agreement, and worked for a year without knowing that your work is covered by a CBA?
Are you saying that the employees of a particular company are all covered under the CBA?
Generally a CBA covers a particular subset of the employment of a company; pipefitters, or pilots, or flight attendants, or welders. If a company has pilots and flight attendants and mechanics, generally they are all responsible for voting themselves into a collective bargaining situation. There's a lot to unpack in your statement, but there's a lot of incongruity. A lot of missing information, too.
Did none of the pilots know of this representation? Were any of the pilots responsible for voting on representation, or agreeing to it? If any other pilots knew about this, did they withhold it from you?
If you're not paying dues, and if nothing is being withheld from your pay, your relationship with the union seems a bit murky. Under what grounds was the contract negotiated, and by whom? What kind of operation?
You are limited to a five-percent bonus, but you are being taxed on a bonus that you do not receive? Your comment infers that other employees receive a 10% bonus of some kind, and that you receive half that amount, but are taxed on the full amount. Is this the case?
It doesn't sound like you have representation, or that any terms have been negotiated for you. Before considering whether you can "opt out," a determination needs to be made regarding what you are "in," first. There's a lot of information missing here. Given your situation, a public discussion may not be appropriate.
You're employed as an aviator, as part of a collective bargaining agreement, and worked for a year without knowing that your work is covered by a CBA?
Are you saying that the employees of a particular company are all covered under the CBA?
Generally a CBA covers a particular subset of the employment of a company; pipefitters, or pilots, or flight attendants, or welders. If a company has pilots and flight attendants and mechanics, generally they are all responsible for voting themselves into a collective bargaining situation. There's a lot to unpack in your statement, but there's a lot of incongruity. A lot of missing information, too.
Did none of the pilots know of this representation? Were any of the pilots responsible for voting on representation, or agreeing to it? If any other pilots knew about this, did they withhold it from you?
If you're not paying dues, and if nothing is being withheld from your pay, your relationship with the union seems a bit murky. Under what grounds was the contract negotiated, and by whom? What kind of operation?
You are limited to a five-percent bonus, but you are being taxed on a bonus that you do not receive? Your comment infers that other employees receive a 10% bonus of some kind, and that you receive half that amount, but are taxed on the full amount. Is this the case?
It doesn't sound like you have representation, or that any terms have been negotiated for you. Before considering whether you can "opt out," a determination needs to be made regarding what you are "in," first. There's a lot of information missing here. Given your situation, a public discussion may not be appropriate.
03-26-2023, 09:51 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2021
Posts: 335
We are definitely in a union, HR responded to my questions about overtime etc with copy of the CBA and confirmed we are non exempt. and who to contact with union. I called had a brief conversation union rep and am still trying set up a meeting with him and pilot group but no progress so far.
04-09-2023, 05:19 AM
#10
Ignoring; John Burke.
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Position: Wandering
Posts: 223
Craft and class
You have several legal options…BTW, I am not a lawyer, but have experience in this area.
Start with a copy of the actual bargaining agreement. Don’t rely on what some rep or shop steward tells you about anything. Often times, they are just guessing. Also, ask for a copy of the unions charter. Now, this will likely put you on somebody’s radar.
I’m guessing whatever union you are supposed to be part of is an in-house union. No national union would lump pilots in with other employees.
Representation is determined by something called “Class and craft”. The department of labor has a listing of most all.
Pilots, truck drivers, railroad engineers’ union are certified under the RLA.
The NMB will be the place to start, to file a complaint or challenge to your representation- and be organized under a different union, or not represented at all.
Once the ball is rolling with the NMB, it is just a matter of getting a card campaign started to vote in another union or none at all. The company has to honor the results of the election. Then the tough part begins…negotiating a contract.
look here;
What is the role of the NMB in representation matters?
It is the NMB’s duty to investigate and resolve representation disputes in the railway and airline industries.
How do representation disputes come to the NMB?
A labor organization (organization) or an individual employee can request that the NMB investigate an alleged representation dispute by filing Form NMB-1, ”Application for Investigation of Representation Dispute.” The organization or individual is also required to file a “Notice of Appearance” with the application which is available at the same link.
Who investigates representation matters?
Representation investigations are conducted and supervised by the NMB’s Office of Legal Affairs.
What are the procedures for investigating representation applications?
The procedures are detailed in the NMB Representation Manual (Manual) available here:
https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/wp-c...ual-2022-1.pdf
Start with a copy of the actual bargaining agreement. Don’t rely on what some rep or shop steward tells you about anything. Often times, they are just guessing. Also, ask for a copy of the unions charter. Now, this will likely put you on somebody’s radar.
I’m guessing whatever union you are supposed to be part of is an in-house union. No national union would lump pilots in with other employees.
Representation is determined by something called “Class and craft”. The department of labor has a listing of most all.
Pilots, truck drivers, railroad engineers’ union are certified under the RLA.
The NMB will be the place to start, to file a complaint or challenge to your representation- and be organized under a different union, or not represented at all.
Once the ball is rolling with the NMB, it is just a matter of getting a card campaign started to vote in another union or none at all. The company has to honor the results of the election. Then the tough part begins…negotiating a contract.
look here;
What is the role of the NMB in representation matters?
It is the NMB’s duty to investigate and resolve representation disputes in the railway and airline industries.
How do representation disputes come to the NMB?
A labor organization (organization) or an individual employee can request that the NMB investigate an alleged representation dispute by filing Form NMB-1, ”Application for Investigation of Representation Dispute.” The organization or individual is also required to file a “Notice of Appearance” with the application which is available at the same link.
Who investigates representation matters?
Representation investigations are conducted and supervised by the NMB’s Office of Legal Affairs.
What are the procedures for investigating representation applications?
The procedures are detailed in the NMB Representation Manual (Manual) available here:
https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/wp-c...ual-2022-1.pdf
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