phoenix 23684

I'm still pretty new to 121, but I keep seeing a lot of unhappiness in this industry, specially in regards to ALPA as a union. So I had a thought and wanted to get input from the pilots at the majors since you have been in this industry longer.

My thought is this, ALPA has done great things for safety and it seems a necessary evil in that aspect. Therefore, how about switching ALPA to just that role and that alone, while at the same time starting another national level organization whose only purpose would be to serve as a union with the intent of creating a national seniority list. Something like United Pilot's Union or whatever fancy accronym.

I think this would be what this industry needs to allow pilot choices much like the rest of corporate america has, I mean if we all belonged to one union, then going between airlines and carrying your expertise with you would be no problem. The positive is that it suddenly breaks you from the ugly marriage to which we are all forced to in order to prosper our careers. Also, this would force airline management to have incentives to attract quality or keep quality. If your airline starts to abuse pilots, they would be hard pressed very quickly as those pilots could go to a better airline while being able to keep their life style.

Now the hard part, because we are all too selfish, how to come up with this list. My thoughts are date of hire into 121 plus a percentage based on your age. Why because we all have the same finish line age 65, but it would not be fair to just base it on age, so a combination of the two would seemed a fair thing, sure some will not like it other will, but I think the bast majority will benefit from such a national list. As I see it right now, pilots are very angry/unhappy with how this industry has gone.

I think it's time for some radical change, pilots in the 30s were able to better this industry, I'm sure against many odds, so why can't we do it today. Thought?

Spaceman Spliff

ALPA national will do everything they can to prevent this from happening. Those fat cats could give a crap about you or me, but they will use every dirty trick they know or can invent to keep themselves in a position of power and self-perceived influence.

I don't think ALPA members will be willing, in this dark age of commercial aviation, to give 2% to ALPA, in addition to the substantial monies required to fund a new union.

It is a great idea, as ALPA national has grown fat, lazy, and complacent. Hopefully this USAPA thing will jar them into realizing how bloated and out of touch they have become. If they care.

It wouldn't be a stretch for NWA or DAL pilots to ditch ALPA if things don't pan out with the SLI...and who can blame them?

L'il J.Seinfeld

I don't want a national seniority list. Besides how would that be fair to military guys? Why should a new regional FO be senior to a military newhire at UPS just because he was hired at a 121 airline? It's not my fault that airline X goes bankrupt. Why should one of its pilots be senior to me when they come to my airline? Choose your horse carefully. There are tons of pilots at FDX and UPS who passed on Delta and United back in the 1990s because they wanted stability. Don't penalize them.

I like your thoughts about making the industry better. I would like to see union leaders be non-pilots and be professional negotiators/lawyers.

Equinox

[

I like your thoughts about making the industry better. I would like to see union leaders be non-pilots and be professional negotiators/lawyers.[/quote]

ah, I don't think so. They will have nothing to lose should it come time for a showdown with mgmt. Giving concessions would be too easy for them.
They are not going to take the concessions, we are!
I've seen this scenario a bit lately, especially in bankruptcy.
They will all chant 'Live to fight another day". But your job won't be worth fighting for if you give away your contract, as alpa lawyers would suggest.....

bbtp

master seniority list - another way to NOT encourage productivity by pilots.

Mason32

Why wouldn't it be fair?

Last I checked ALPA does not represent military pilots. ALPA also doesn't represent civilian flight instructors at part 61 schools... I am sure there are tons of pilots with great flying experience. If your going to make exceptions for military pilots, then make them for all pilots. There is no draft, those pilots chose to go into the military, just like other folks chose to stay with their family and stay instructors at their local airports.

The only way to be fair is to go by their first day as an ALPA pilot. As long as managements have the option to intentionally run their airline bankrupt, pull the cord on their golden parachute, use the court system to reorganize, or sell to another carrier.... then we ALL stand to lose our seniority at a moments notice under our current system.

Our pilot groups, nationwide, are comprised of a wide variety of people, with an even wider variety of interests and concerns. The issue here is what is best for the majority, and what is best for the future of the profession. Your sacrificing the majority, and all the future pilots to come to save the minority.

Agreed, and if not, those types of people should be retained and be there at the table with us.

The single seniority list, as well as a national ALPA generic pilot contract need to be established. Each MEC should be prohibited from accepting anything less than the ALPA basic pilot contract. they should remain free to negotiate their own special perks and such tailored to their own airlines, but a national baseline for pilot contracts needs to be established.

It should run like the screen actors guild, and your seniority starts your first day as an ALPA pilot regardless of what airline. The retirement plans and such should all be run through ALPA, funded by contributions from each airline, so that the managements can't steal the money.

my 2 cents

Spaceman Spliff

If you're advocating that type of treatment for military pilots after the sacrifices they and their families voluntarily make to protect your right to be a jackass, you're damn well going to need a draft when folks stop volunteering to avoid getting screwed when they get out.

Sorry, Mason, you'll never be able to cut in front of me here. Because at the end of the day, a national list as you've described it is all about RJ babies cutting in front of former military pilots at the mainline or FedEx/UPS. Not gonna happen.

CE750

I've given serious thought along with a fellow furloughed American friend on taking the time I've got off now being unemployed and spending my efforts to start a sort of "national pilots guild"... a European style guild that I envision will eventually require membership (at no cost or very little) in order to work in the industry (FAR 121, 135, 91 Jet / turbo props)... It would be a guild that would set forth minimum standards of pay and work rules for ALL types of flying and aircraft.

DON'T ask me too mant questions about it as I've really not thought a lot of it out.. if I did this, my friend and I figure we'd first get a website and a non-for profit, then we'd try to get volunteers from the industry (corporate, airline, charter, etc..) to form a committee to set the rules..

We need something other than ALPA with it's corporatized unions or IBT with it's trucker mentality.

CE750

I admire your belief in the free market and hard work the old fashioned way C, but you have to understand, and Skybus is proof of this to me... there needs to be a check and balance to the corporate greed that has taken over this nation like a plague.. we may never agree on this, but take it from me as someone who's spent his entire career in the private sector (I wish I could have had yours mind you).. it's not all merit here..

CE750

You could set some minimum level of experience for membership to the list... we can say ATP, Jet type rating and PIC of 500 hours in a Part 25 turbine aircraft or something..

I can understand why you might not want it as you're in a great cush job at UPS.. I'm sure if the tables were turned and you were a furloughed UAL, DAL, AMR, AAA or NWA guy (as there will be many soon I'm sure), you'd probably like to think that your experience is worth more than just the bottom of some other seniority list.. in the end, a lot of us got lucky about where we were hired.. there were few of us that set out from the beginning to work for XYZ airline and then actually got it.. most of us are slaves to our airline that just so happened to hire us...

In the corporate world, where engineers, lawyers, doctors and other professionals work.. they don't take draconian paycuts to leave one employer and go to the other.. in many cases they take pay rases.

Why should a Gemini Captain with 2000 hours MD11 PIC have to take a 2nd officer position to work at UPS, logically speaking? I know your answer is going to have something to do with somebody being a loser and someone a high caliber top gun from the USAF.. but that's not accurate as I know USAFA grads who flew fighters that are stuck at GAC while B1900 captains are flying MD11's at Brown... it's who you know, and luck 90% what what you know 10%.. that's wrong.