When will we finally stand united?
12-04-2008, 11:51 PM
#11
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by GoGators85
Perhaps, our lobbying in Washington should be focused on getting legislature passed to establish a certifying process similar to the bar for lawyers.
I think you have some good points though.
12-05-2008, 03:39 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: E-190/175/170
Posts: 172
EBL,
Glad to know there are others who are seeing similiar issues and are willing to talk about it in a constructive way. I started a similiar discussion on the "Majors" board a few weeks ago. The "National Seniority List" Link, I found to be VERY Informative, well thought out, (Still needs work) I would call it a rough draft for a proposal. This is my effort to keep the learning points on this topic on the surface so we don't have to re-hash the same thing. I realize that there is a MOUNTAIN of resistance to the idea of a National Seniority List, but there a those who feel that this could be of benefit to our profession if we do it right. Like I said it would be a tough fight on all sides.., even within our own ranks. Take a look if you like and see what you think. For those who do read it, try to keep an open mind...,this is merely a proposal, a starting point from which a final product COULD be molded.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...rity-list.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...rofession.html
Glad to know there are others who are seeing similiar issues and are willing to talk about it in a constructive way. I started a similiar discussion on the "Majors" board a few weeks ago. The "National Seniority List" Link, I found to be VERY Informative, well thought out, (Still needs work) I would call it a rough draft for a proposal. This is my effort to keep the learning points on this topic on the surface so we don't have to re-hash the same thing. I realize that there is a MOUNTAIN of resistance to the idea of a National Seniority List, but there a those who feel that this could be of benefit to our profession if we do it right. Like I said it would be a tough fight on all sides.., even within our own ranks. Take a look if you like and see what you think. For those who do read it, try to keep an open mind...,this is merely a proposal, a starting point from which a final product COULD be molded.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...rity-list.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...rofession.html
Last edited by Beechlover; 12-05-2008 at 03:51 AM.
12-05-2008, 04:40 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 951
Originally Posted by TurboFan
We already have this, it's called a CPL and ATP license and all the written and practical testing involved in getting one.
I think you have some good points though.
I think you have some good points though.
Having gone through the hoops, I agree the barriers of entry into professional flying are too low. Part of the problem is that in the US, anybody who can come up with the money (and that means just about anybody in the land of cheap credit) can join the profession. There is no minimum education requirement, no entry exam, and the medical exam is a joke. And the carriers LOVE it that way. I believe they would clandestinely resist any movement for tougher professional standards, no matter who was trying to raise the bar.
12-05-2008, 05:01 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: BassTracker
Posts: 664
Originally Posted by ebl14
I'm tired of everyone talking about how ALPA is the biggest pilot union in the US. Thats crap. ALPA is too big for its own good. Too many different locals have conflicting interests. If we get more flying its most likely coming at the expense of our "ALPA brothers" at another carrier. And trying to compare ALPA at legacy carriers to regional ALPA is rediculous. Our ALPA is only as big as our local ALPA, thats it. If we were all really as unified as we SHOULD be ALPA national could negotiate for ALL ALPA MEMBERS no matter what carrier they work for. When that happens you can call it real national union. I'm sick of paying dues to a Association which represents other carriers who may soon be taking my job away, and will take credit for its expansion.
The problem with the system is that people who are in a good position don't have any reason or way to help those who are getting screwed over by thier carriers. If we pilots actually had some balls we would stop letting our different companies work together to make us undercut each other.
Just for example look at the DCI carriers. Out of all the carriers how many are supported by ALPA? How has this helped us out? If you are at freedom or comair is hasn't helped you much, but if you are at mesaba it was great. CONFLICTING INTERESTS. When will we stop this abuse? When will we truely stand united? We need ONE DCI pilot contract (and possible senority list). ONE entity to bargain for a fair and resonable contract. If you fly a 50 seat plane at X years senority you should get Y pay... end of story. It is going to take a lot more than the threat of a strike. When we say strike managements all over the US just look at us and laugh in our faces. Its time to really grow some ball and just say, "We all stand together... negotiate these terms with us to ALL ALPA PILOTS WALK," NOT STRIKE, QUIT, OUTRIGHT.
I know this all sounds a little wild, but if its not going to go that far, why hasn't ALPA national worked harder to repeal or revise the RLA? Why don't they take my 1.95% and try to put it to use on that? And why shouldn't I get to choose how my 1.95% get spent? Our profession is being torn apart before our very eyes. We have the ability to save it but it will take drastic measures to accomplish big goals.
Its true what people say about the regionals degrading the industry. It was allowed by the pilots unions at legacy carriers in the first place, but it will take participation of ALL PILOTS INVOLVED to achieve real improvements. You better believe that DCI is working hard and with all of our managements to make sure we don't come anywhere close to this. Our future is in our own hands... the longer we wait the longer our road to recovery... if there ever is one.
The problem with the system is that people who are in a good position don't have any reason or way to help those who are getting screwed over by thier carriers. If we pilots actually had some balls we would stop letting our different companies work together to make us undercut each other.
Just for example look at the DCI carriers. Out of all the carriers how many are supported by ALPA? How has this helped us out? If you are at freedom or comair is hasn't helped you much, but if you are at mesaba it was great. CONFLICTING INTERESTS. When will we stop this abuse? When will we truely stand united? We need ONE DCI pilot contract (and possible senority list). ONE entity to bargain for a fair and resonable contract. If you fly a 50 seat plane at X years senority you should get Y pay... end of story. It is going to take a lot more than the threat of a strike. When we say strike managements all over the US just look at us and laugh in our faces. Its time to really grow some ball and just say, "We all stand together... negotiate these terms with us to ALL ALPA PILOTS WALK," NOT STRIKE, QUIT, OUTRIGHT.
I know this all sounds a little wild, but if its not going to go that far, why hasn't ALPA national worked harder to repeal or revise the RLA? Why don't they take my 1.95% and try to put it to use on that? And why shouldn't I get to choose how my 1.95% get spent? Our profession is being torn apart before our very eyes. We have the ability to save it but it will take drastic measures to accomplish big goals.
Its true what people say about the regionals degrading the industry. It was allowed by the pilots unions at legacy carriers in the first place, but it will take participation of ALL PILOTS INVOLVED to achieve real improvements. You better believe that DCI is working hard and with all of our managements to make sure we don't come anywhere close to this. Our future is in our own hands... the longer we wait the longer our road to recovery... if there ever is one.
Originally Posted by ebl14
and alot of people thought we would never have a black president either
Take your socialist crap somewhere else. I would rather get paid the lowest than live without capitalism. At least then I know if I work hard maybe I can get paid the highest somewhere else.
12-05-2008, 05:25 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Out
Posts: 448
Originally Posted by skidmark
Take your socialist crap somewhere else. I would rather get paid the lowest than live without capitalism. At least then I know if I work hard maybe I can get paid the highest somewhere else.
12-05-2008, 05:50 AM
#16
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 73N
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by skidmark
Take your socialist crap somewhere else. I would rather get paid the lowest than live without capitalism. At least then I know if I work hard maybe I can get paid the highest somewhere else.
12-05-2008, 07:32 AM
#17
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
Originally Posted by skidmark
At least then I know if I work hard maybe I can get paid the highest somewhere else.
Scenario 1: hard work & its rewards
After all those years of hard work at a regional, you finally get in interview with United. It's very competitive because they are one of the highest paying, most prestigious airlines in the US, but, as stated you have worked hard and they recognize that. Two years later you're forced to take paycuts. Six months later you're furloughed. 3 years after that you're called back only to find that the company is in shambles and your CEO and management respect you about as much as you apparently respect socialism. 2 more years go by and now you're getting furloughed again.
Scenario 2: Luck & Reality
Simultaneously, your buddy got on with Continental. It wasn't nearly as competitive as United, but he didn't "work as hard" so he had to settle. Fast forward 9 years and he's a captain 40% up the seniority list.
Both are true stories
Bottom line: Hard work has very little to do with it. Good connections and a quick upgrade are much more valuable.
12-05-2008, 07:44 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Airbus
Posts: 634
Originally Posted by BoredwLife
It will never happen.
Start emailing ALPA national, and the Fee For Departure Task Force (committee amongst regionals), express your views and become active in your beliefs. I think that if everyone at the regionals started voicing their opinions, ALPA national will take notice. Right now, people don't speak up enough.
Last edited by nwa757; 12-05-2008 at 07:55 AM.
12-05-2008, 07:47 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: CA
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by skidmark
Take your socialist crap somewhere else. I would rather get paid the lowest than live without capitalism. At least then I know if I work hard maybe I can get paid the highest somewhere else.
12-05-2008, 08:00 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: BassTracker
Posts: 664
It was his wording x 50 rj at x pay rate for x number of years that sounds bad to me. Then why try to work for a company that's better? Socialism doesn't work. Anyway yes I would like to make more money too, same as you. Most regional pilots are underpaid, and many majors as well. But what you are saying is goverment mandate pay rates according to the number of seats on your plane. Then we should charge the same price for the passenger for distance flown. Sounds like re-regulation right? I vote for free market and let the chips fall where they are, and yes I work at a crappy regional. Someone else said it is all about who you know, that is the best advice on this thread.
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