Somebody that gets it. +1

 

I'm not a commodity, and it's not my responsibility to be cheapened, or let market forces take effect, for the good of the consumer. You're trying to relate the price of goods and services to pilot wages, and it's not making sense to me. Pilots and management are not balanced forces. Management can change supply at their whim, which kills the bargaining power of pilots, as individuals. Pilots have no control over this. If they did, unions would be unnecessary. Why should anyone's wages be subject to the free market, when they have a clear way of getting around that (unions), and being paid a fair wage for the type of work they do? I don't understand your point, that wages should be subject to the negative effects of supply and demand. The only group this would benefit is management. Pilot wages have no direct correlation to the market affects of an airlines success, or lack of success. If an airline can't pay a fair wage, and turn a profit at the same time, then they are being mismanaged somewhere along the line. Either they are not adapting to a changing business environment, or they are just plain mismanaging the operation. It can't be blamed on wages. It's like the US auto industry building cars that no one wants, that fall apart and guzzle gas, and then blaming union wages for management's epic failures.

 

The examples cited of unchecked capitalism are a red herring. This economy has not had any industry vastly unregulated in quite some time. In fact, the unchecked capitalism of which many speak with housing and banking are a direct result of government influence on the market, not free market. But, trying to teach somebody economics that thinks about walmart and economics with their heart and what they've heard on tv is futile. Read a few books about economics and how history has proven capitalism works, then come back and see if your liberal 'feelings' really yield what you wish they would.

I have no doubt that your heart is in the right place. Who wouldn't want every free person to get as much food and shelter and car and whatever else they can from the government so they are not poor anymore. Turns out that causes even more people to be poor and makes everybody poorer. Man, it seemed like a compassionate thing to do.

 

I've read books on economics. My degree is in management. Just because you have more conservative feelings, and mine are more liberal, doesn't mean I'm uneducated. You're confusing someone with opposing political leanings with being "wrong", or "uneducated". That is a fairly despotic way of making an argument. Is Obama uneducated, just because he doesn't look at things from your conservative perspective of being anti-union, being for small government, non-government interference, etc.? So, it is your contention that we should have let the banks fail, and the US auto industry fail? That is what free-market capitalism would have dictated. We were on the brink of a complete system failure. If you can't see that, then I really can't help you. If you want to extend the affects of market forces beyond the sale of goods and services, as you're trying to do, and extend them to pilot wages, then why not apply it to all aspects of your life? If a family member asks for money to help pay their mortgage payment, so they don't lose their house to the bank, then you might as well say no. That would be interference with the market forces that are at work. Do you understand how unfair it is to try to apply ideals of capitalism and market forces in the sale of goods and services, to wages? Even though the economic models may be similar between the two, because of the gross imbalance of power between individual pilots and management, allowing market forces to take hold would only screw over this profession for good. I can't see how that would be a good thing, in any way, shape, or form. The only thing it would benefit is the size of a manager's bonus check. Like I said before, if a business can't operate profitably while still paying a fair and equitable wage, then they are either mismanaged, or have a failed business plan. Let the market forces weed out the failed business plans and mismanaged companies, not fair and equitable wages.

 

The problem with the supply-demand relationship for pilots, is that management is in control of both the supply and the demand. In a typical industry which sells a good or service, the producer controls supply. In our case, as pilots, we are the producer, but we are not in control of supply. This means there is an unbalance of power, if you want to operate it as a free-market. Here is how we fit into supply and demand, and as you can see, it's not a fair deal:

a. Service offered by producer (pilot labor)
b. Service purchased by consumer (management)
c. Consumer in direct control of supply, therefore in direct control of market price for services purchased.

In what other industry is the consumer in direct control of supply, and therefore in direct control of market price? This is why airlines have pushed for a Multi-Crew Pilot licenses, and will lower mins to a pulse when supply is short. If they loose their grip on excess supply, they lose their grip on the control of the market price. This is one of the reasons why I feel unions are necessary. If the free-market is to work with pilot wages, pilots should, at very least, be able to be in direct control of the supply of the service they offer.

 

1900, I think we are wasting our time on this. What we have is someone with some form of higher education, but no common sense.

Education in the form of attending lecturers, reading assignments and writing papers to achieve a goal (the degree) does not correlate to the real world application of the theories espoused by professors who generally have no real world experience either. Those who are smart enough to understand that take the book knowledge into the world and through experience, learn to marry the knowledge and experience to gain common sense and truly profit from both.

Others, as we have here, just espouse economic theory to enlighted or impress because that's all they know.

Put another way, if you had a choice, whom would you want in the cockpit with you?


a) Someone who can quote chapter and verse from the manual and company policy, who graduated at the top of his class? And when faced with an emergency, couldn't cut his way out of a wet paper bag with a pair of scissors and photographic instructions?

or

b) Someone who graduated mid class or maybe lower, knows where to find what he needs in the book, has learned by observing and asking questions and when faced with the emergency is intuitive and focuses on the problem with you, instead of spouting what "the book said."

In my 30 years of doing this, and instructing both types, I'll take "b" anyday.

 

I'm a member of the SWAPA union at Southwest and our Union is a joke. Since I have been at SWA I have gone backwards in senority and quality of life. Unions have caused this industry more turmoil than people on this site will ever acknowlege.

 

Flying is a different animal than most jobs in that many people just dream of doing it for years before they start. Its not like many other professions where you do it for the benefits/pay/QOL, etc and accept the negatives. In aviation, most new sign ups just want to FLY because they love it! Pay and QOL are secondary - at first. When a 300 hour new pilot gets an RJ job, he'll get molded into the group think and start to chant the group chant about inadequate pay, etc. It is contagious to think this way when it is all you hear. The story hasn't changed, yet people continue to sign up for it - to FLY. There is a price one pays to participate in this industry where there is a seemingly endless sea of applicants looking to "live the dream" and stay out of the cubicle. Some make it (SWA, UPS, FDX), and others don't.

Many pilots don't plan their lives correctly. In this day and age, to major in aviation and rack up debt at a pilot factory is just STUPID!!! The owners of these types of schools (assuming private ownership) are laughing all the way to the bank. They, like the entry level RJ jobs, are taking advantage of the dream.

Fast forward a few years and the true colors of the job begin to show. By this time, many have built the perfect trap for themselves (loaded with debt, no other real marketable skills, etc) and cannot get out.

 

I have two problems with my union flying job.

1. The pay isn't incentive based and I feel like I'm back in the socialist military style of a paycheck -- longevity based. No matter what, it all pays the same, as long as you are "safe". Yes, I understand there could be safety problems tied to incentives, but you have no incentive or desire to do a great job other than "its good for the company, its good for you". And it also seems that many of the union guys breed hatred for management and/or the company itself.

2. I think the unions have done a lot for safety, but I also think they breed incompetence ... and in some cases, hide it from management. My personal story... Flew with a Captain that absolutely scared the living daylights out of me, many times over on a 4-day trip (I will not get into details here). When I went to "pro standards",they were well aware of this guy. However, whenever they talk to this guy, or give him a no-notice eval, he miraculously cleans up his act, does things by the book, and is untouchable. The only way to catch this guy would be to install cameras. Oh wait, can't do that (thanks union). Or perhaps, to secretly have an FO who plays up being a line guy, but is really a check airman. But something tells me the union would have grave issues with that as well. So, this guy gets away with some very very bad stuff.

 

Why is it SWAPA's fault that your seniority and QOL have not improved? Why not blame the economy or management's business decisions? Who deserves credit for the fact that SWA has not furloughed during this downturn? SWAPA? Management? Both?