Unions are the problem just like government is the problem. Free market its what are founding fathers wanted.

Jet Blue, Sky West are two companies that do a good job. They are not used and abused or paid unfairly.

inefficient governments and unions produce wast and corruption. The government raises taxes the unions give away your wages.

It is easier to control groups than individuals. Thats why we have individual rights and the government want to take away your rights so they can control you. Management can control you alot easier when you guys are in a union. If you **** off free employees they might just quit. When you **** off union employees they cannot quit due to the rail way labor act. Or at least they cannot quit all at once.

 

Ok, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I respect yours, but I think you are not living in the real world.

In an ideal economic model, the laws of supply and demand would set the work rules and salary of pilots. Those laws hold true today to some degree. When pilots are in short supply, airlines raise salaries and increase benefits to attract aircrews. When there is a glut of pilots (like now), airlines have the upper hand and frequently exploit their advantage to cut pay and benefits so they can pocket more cash. But you already know this.

Whenever I examine this issue, I always arrive at the same conclusion...if it weren't for unions, we'd all be paid like regional pilots...barely eeking out a living. Like it or not (and I don't like unions btw...I view them as a necessary evil) we need unions to keep from getting run over.

The only way out of this union management relationship would be to get rid of unions overnight, let all pilots around the world take it in the shorts for most of what's left of their career, until the market has a chance to make a correction, that is, most flight academies shut down, military pilots stay in the military for a full career, and the few pilots who would fly for free anyway will support the dwindling industry until management is forced to raise pay and benefits back to a reasonable level to attract qualified pilots who by now would probably only come from the military, at least initially. (How's that for a huge run-on sentence?) I, for one, would like this to NOT HAPPEN while I am employed as a pilot.

It's a lot harder for management to p!$$ off employees who negotiated a decent contract. A fair contract is a win-win for both management and the employees, and over a career, I'll bet my dues paying a$$ does far better, and my airline is more profitable with the union than without.

BTW, I didn't understand your comment about not being able to quit. I'm in a union and I can quit any time I want.

Just my $.02.

 

[quote=Freedom421;656434]Free market its what are founding fathers wanted.
quote]
Go fly a kite in a lightening storm, and let me know how it works out.

 

The corporate pilot world seems to be just fine they are not paid rock bottom wages.

If your company cuts your pay in half can 100% of your pilot group quit if you are a large labor group under the RLA. Provided the only way they could do this is in bankruptcy court.

95% of pilots are in unions so i am the minority.

 

Hey, I'm with you. I wish we didn't need unions either, but...

If your only yardstick of success is not being paid rock bottom wages, then yeah, I guess you're right about the corporate world.

In a unionized pilot group, the company CAN'T cut your pay in half without going through a long painful negotiating process during which you have some control over how much of a pay cut you can accept over what time period. Or, perhaps you negotiate that you will not accept a pay cut and insist that the airline implement other measures, like furloughing or reducing schedules. Either way, you have a say so in the process which you don't have if you don't have a union. Sure, after negotiations break down and you go into self help, the company can do what they want (which is probably to cut your pay in half like they first wanted to), but with a union it will take them months or years to reach that point that the lost productivity incurred along the way, and the bad press etc. just might be enough incentive for management to find a better solution. And while the company does what they want, so too can you (within the limits of the RLA). And yes, 100% of the pilot group can quit any time they want. No law can force you to be employed against your will. You are thinking of organized job action prior to self help...this is what is specifically prohibited under the RLA. But if you are not in a union, you can NEVER engage in organized job action...EVER. You'll get fired on the spot.

I likely didn't change your opinion with all this. That's ok. Do what ya gotta do. Fortunately for you, the law provides that you reap most if not all the benefits of membership in a labor union if one is in place at your company, whether you join or not. Most places are agency shop...you must pay dues anyway.

Cheers!

 

Is this by chance or because they want experienced pilots and have to compete with airline wages (which are arguably higher because of unions)?

I only like unions in airlines because I think experience there counts for something. Everywhere else they've probably run their course.

 

Not likely most will not even hire airline pilots.

The great thing about the USA is we can have union companies and non-union ones as well.

 

I think part of it may be corporate insurance requirements. This limits supply, by reducing the number of qualified pilots. Someone with 250 hours will usually not be able to fly as an copilot in a corporate jet, and a person with 1500 hours will usually not be able to fly as captain, at the corporate level. Also, corporate flight departments put a value on having quality pilots, because there is a more personal connection to an executive's feeling of safety. There is a more personal connection between the passengers and the crew, and there is an understanding that experience equals safety. In the airlines, pilots are viewed as a group; more specifically, a labor group. There is a disconnection between the passengers, and the crew. Passengers have a blind faith that the FO and CA have an adequate amount of experience, to complete their job safely. The passengers don't get to pick their crew, so they allow the FAA and airlines to do that for them. This can create a conflict of interest, in regards to having quality people in airline pilot positions. The FAA sets the minimum entry requirements (250 hours). The problem is, when airlines are stretched on pilot labor, they will lower experience requirements to increase supply, keeping labor cheap. A corporate flight department would probably not decrease experience requirements to increase supply, because they are held back by insurance requirements, the passengers have a personal connection to the pilots, and understand how experience equals safety; in addition, their pilots are a small enough group, that they are usually not viewed as a "labor group". Corporate pilots are able to negotiate, using their experience as a negotiation tool. I don't think experience could be used as a negotiation tool at the level of the airlines, because the cost of labor within the "labor group" is seen as a barrier to increased profits; union or non-union. There are a few airlines, where management truly understands the value of having quality people, and is willing to pay for them. Unfortunately, this is the exception, rather than the rule. Most are willing to take on anyone who meets the minimum FAA requirements for entry, if labor supply dwindles.

 

I would go one step further and say that is the beauty of a free market capitalistic society - the fact that both union and non-union labor can exist.

During the course of these types of discussions I have noticed that some will espouse the following thought process - many who are pro-union tend to be anti-capitalist. As I read comments composed of this particular kind of thought, the realization that must be brought forth is one of contradiction. Only in a free market environment can unions exist and exist successfully.

What is a union? A union is simply a means or a tool in which a group of unified individuals use it for the sole means of improving labor conditions and/or wages for their given job. It is a method of bargaining (read: buy, sell and trade) with your employer in which you agree to exchange a set of skills for given compensation.

Have many people have thought about the alternative to a free market capitalistic environment? It is one in which the state (i.e., communism) controls the parameters of buying and selling. Does anyone really want a governmental body to control who buys what, how much, and for what price? Remember, if not the market then the state who sets your wages and work rules. How many successful labor unions are in existence in Russia or China?

 

"The corporate worle seems to be just fine..." unless the beancounters decide to dump the plane tomorrow because the quarterly results sucked and the shareholders want it gone.

Or the boss doesn't like the way you looked at his girlfriend and is afraid you mght tip off the wife.

Or you tell the boss you won't fly until the weather is above zero/zero.

Yeah...just spiffy....