Wrong, that's not what seniority is, as was explained in the previous post to me.

For example, in FAA Air Traffic Control, our union deducted seniority time for holding management jobs, or time spent outside the ATC core job.

Even date of hire doesn't mean much. The first day that you could become a bargaining unit member was AFTER you passed your "ground school" training in Oklahoma City, therefore seniority could begin then. You were hired many months previous.

 

sen·ior·i·ty   /sinˈyɔrɪti, -ˈyɒr-/ Show Spelled
[seen-yawr-i-tee, -yor-] Show IPA

–noun, plural -ties for 2.
1. the state of being senior; priority of birth; superior age.
2. priority, precedence, or status obtained as the result of a person's length of service, as in a profession, trade, company, or union: First choice of vacation time will be given to employees with seniority.

Dictionary. com FYI-free app!

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Thanks for the definition.

How on earth, then, was an 16 year AAA pilot quite junior while a 16 year AWA pilot quite senior pre-merger?

Here's another definition:

 

Do you mean how is a 3 yr AWA pilot senior to a AAA 20 year pilot?

 

No, I'm not discussing the NIC.

Pre-merger at their respective companies, a 16 year AWA pilot was senior; a 16 year AAA pilot was junior.

Despite identical longevity, one pilot had substantially more seniority.

Even a 3-5 year AWA pilot pre-merger had more seniority than a 16 year AAA pilot.

So given that longevity (length of service) does not in fact dictate one's seniority, how can one reasonably justify a 16 year AAA pilot becoming radically more senior to the 3-5 year AWA pilot who held a greater percentage seniority the day before a merger was announced?

Is THAT not the definition of a windfall?

Would it not be more reasonable that a pilot who was at, say, 75% seniority before the merger be at 75% seniority (+/- a little) after a merger...regardless of their length of service?

 

You have got to be kidding? Do you honestly believe that a guy with 3-5 years of employment with AWA should have more seniority than a pilot that has been with USAirways for 18 years of continuous service? It is all about the years of service. Where were you 24 years ago? What I am hearing you say is that you would like the company to give you credit for years of service without having work for them...not much in life is FREE!
"It's time to get real"

 

Having more years of service doesn't mean a whole lot if, after all those years of service, you were still junior.

If a pilot with 16 or even 18 years longevity was around the same relative seniority as a 3-5 year pilot, I say sure, give the guy who has been around longer the higher spot between the two.

But if they guy with 16 or 18 years is sitting below 75% seniority at his airline and the guy with 3-5 is between 50-75% at his, then I absolutely think it would be a windfall to place a more junior pilot substantially above the more senior pilot. If both pilots are placed in an integrated list at the same percentage they were pre-merger, then neither pilot "loses" anything. But if you place a junior pilot above a more senior pilot, then the junior pilot gains seniority that they did not have at the expense of the more senior pilot.

What I am hearing you say is that you would like the company to give you SENIORITY that you did not earn, despite all those years of service.

Also, not that it particularly matters, but how many pilots at AAA have 18 years of continuous service? My uncle who was an early 89 Piedmont hire wasn't anywhere close to that at AAA thanks to at least two, if not three, furloughs.

I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my head around pilots who spent a majority of their career as reserve FOs and on furlough thinking they are somehow entitled to seniority higher than captains at the airline they are merging with...

 

Might want to start a new thread on Air Traffic Control....

 

Ok, I guess you missed the word "continuous". That means uninterrupted employment. Percentage does not matter in this industry, it is all about your seniority number/ DOH. Like I said in a previous post, everything in a Pilot's career is based on their date of hire.

Longevity, is not a term used in the airline industry. If a guy was throwing bags on the ramp for 5 years at AWA before he got on as a pilot he gets longevity credit for non-reving not towards his seniority/DOH as a pilot. As a pilot you should be using the word S-E-N-I-O-R-I-T-Y, not longevity. The word longevity might be best used when talking about one's life expectancy or one's marriage.... But if you really want to talk longevity what part of 3 years vs 18 don't you get? What were you doing in 1987?

 

Nope, I saw it.

But just for kicks, would you mind telling us just how many AAA pilots have 18 years of continuous, uninterrupted employment who were placed junior to 3-5 year AWA pilots on the Nic list?

Would you then mind telling us what those pilots' actual seniority at AAA was before the merger was announced, and what their seniority is under the Nicholau award?

No, everything in a pilot's career is based on their S-E-N-I-O-R-I-T-Y.

It doesn't seem to be registering with you that even having a DOH in the late 80s/early 90s, a good number of AAA pilots weren't remotely close to having seniority (commonly measured as a percentage derived by your seniority number divided by the total active pilot group) at US Airways at the date the merger was announced.

You and your entire union/pilot group have yet to offer a compelling argument why they should gain seniority they NEVER had at the expense of AWA pilots other than "we've been at our airline longer than they have."

Especially when some of those AAA pilots with an entitlement complex were on furlough while pilots at AWA with later DOHs were active.

I was playing in a sandbox and watching Sesame Street in 1987.

How exactly is that pertinent to a discussion of how SENIORITY is not remotely the same thing as LONGEVITY (a concept pretty much everybody except East pilots and the USAPA understands), or why a AAA pilot who was junior when the merger was announced is entitled to a combined seniority position greater than what he had the day before the merger was announced?