The Military's Salary is fixed by the Government is it not? That's the only way this would ever get done. One entity telling us how much we get paid!
...That's where you enter "yeah right" - BCD

 

FatMike: I understand your concern with how a national seniority list may violate what you consider to be the laws of capitalism and free enterprise, however I have to disagree with your analysis.

Why couldn't companies compete with each other on price anymore if there was a national seniority list? Labor would simply become more of a fixed cost. The airlines are used to dealing with fixed costs like oil, airplane payments, landing fees, ground services, etc. Are you suggesting that the only variable cost to the airlines is labor? If so, you might want to reevaluate. How about improving operational efficiency? How about trimming overhead? Besides, companies could certainly opt to pay pilots more than that what is mandated by a national union as a minimum compensation level.



Well then, let me ask you this: in what other "real world job" are you guaranteed to start over again from the bottom if you are forced to or opt to switch employers? Under your view of the American free enterprise system, doesn't our current seniority system also violate the principles of capitalism and tread dangerously in the territory of socialism? If you truly advocate free enterprise, then you ought to be arguing for the abolition of unions altogether. Then, all pilots could compete individually with each other. Pay and advancement would be based entirely on merit in the eyes of each employer and you would essentially be forever on probation. In your opinion, wouldn't that be better?



I don't understand why you assert that much of the rules of our country's current business model would have to be rewritten. Our country's business model is based on captalism. Capitalism is based fundamentally on supply and demand. Essentially, a national seniority list could be seen in economic terms as a supply-limiting vehicle. It would limit or regulate the supply of pilots available to the airlines. This is very much a capitalist idea. Every rational manufacturer in America and the free world supplies their product and sets it's price at a level that they perceive as appropriate to the level of demand. It is not socialist or communist to limit the supply of a certain product in order to establish a desired price. That is Economics 101. That is captalism. OPEC does this with oil and DeBeers does it with diamonds.



And did you enjoy it when your job was outsourced to India? I woudn't have. Your story and others like it are one of the reasons why we have unions in the first place. Strong unions help prevent companies from running roughshod over their employees. Unions give employees a voice and influence. Our union system today takes away from our voice and our influence, because management knows that we have ZERO portability and very little real leverage when it comes down to the brass tacks. Just ask the NWA pilots. Maybe you think you're too smart to ever find yourself in the situation that those brainless NWA pilots got themselves into, but I don't think I am. We NEED a better system and a national seniority list is a better system.

 

Exactly beacuse thay do not compete on price. One carrier sets the bar and all others match the change.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061018/ameri...ares.html?.v=1
"AP
American Cuts DFW Fares
Wednesday October 18, 9:50 pm ET
American Cuts DFW Fares to Compete With Southwest
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- American Airlines cut prices Wednesday for travel between Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport and many U.S. cities one day after rival Southwest Airlines Co. announced a fare sale to the same cities."

It doen't matter what thier cost is. They match prices.

 

Great post, thanks!


Flatten the pay scale.
As I reread this thread I realize that I didn't make my original ideas on this very clear.


A pilot shall be paid a rate proportional to the a/c capacity.

PIC overide is 10 to 25%
First year pay is discounted 10 - 25%
First year as a 121 pilot pay is discounted an additional percentage (10%?)
Longevity is rewarded marginally (.5%-2% a year) (Perhaps only company seniority is rewarded?)

Now the pilot with 10 more years experience is priced competativly with the less experienced pilot.



I agree that this is an important right, and a company should have the option to bypass a Member on the list to get a better coperate 'fit'. But there should be some penalty involved. Not so onerous that it impairs a companies' hiring process, but signifigant enought that a company can not simply bypass everyone on the list for economic reasons. Thats why I thought 10% compensation would be appropiate. It makes the cost of hiring off the street equal to hiring the experienced pilot. the company maintains discretion, but gains no economic benefit.



Here's where we disagree. A military pilot has no more right to an upwardly adjusted seniority date than a CFI, corperate pilot, or even a ramper. Military pilots are amply rewarded for thier service in training, pay, & retirement. And many would argue they have an unfair advantage getting hired due to the contacts they make in thier careers. In addition they can continue to serve in the Guard or Reserves, thus having an additional layer of "Furlogh Insurance" that civilian pilots do not.


Thanks again for your reasoned and elequent post.

 

Obviously this is not really going to happen, but...

If all airline pilots were offered federal government employment today, with full bennies and retirement, I would vote yes in a heart beat. Mid-grade military pilots can pull well over $100K, but they don't have to put in 10-15 years of dues-paying to get there. I'd take the bird-in-the-hand approach.

Military pay is pretty good for officers (which is the pay grade range airline pilots would be in), and the military does not have any labor rights (no unions or strikes). We would still have that, probably not much more limited than the RLA.

 

Bringing this thread back from the grave because I think the NSL is a good idea and would love to see it put into reality.

I am young enough to switch careers, to get out of the uncertainty of being an airline pilot, even though I like my job. I look down the road of life and wonder, "Will I be able to support a family if I get furloughed from the only profession I know how to do?" and "Will I end up as a 'lifer' at some regional carrier because I can not afford to take the risk of starting over at a major?"

There has never been more truth in a statement than there is in the one above. I am lucky, that's how I got where I am today, but do I want to take my chances all my life? Absolutely not. I want to know that I have a future somewhere and that some pr*ck CEO isn't going to take my pension and ask for concessions because he can't run an airline properly.

We need something to change drastically. Pilots need to stop fighting other pilots and come together as a whole.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just a kid.

 

Good luck with that !
Won,t happen in my lifetime but maybe in someone else,s

 

Won't ever happen, but...

"If" some legacy went out of business due to their incompetance after 'screwing' their employees for years, would you want your company to be forced to interview them and, if not hired, pay them forever??

robthree - "I think it should be a Preferential Hire List. When a carrier has an opening they must interview unemployed pilots from the top of the list. If they do not hire the most senior pilot, they must compensate that pilot X amount (10-25% salery?) Until that pilot is hired or declines an offer from any carrier."

So,.. the carrier that is currently growing is forced to interview these guys AND pay them if they decide that they are tools and won't fit into their culture?

 

Resurrecting the thread is great and all, but how about at least getting some discussion going in the real world. Why is this not a bigger issue or topic of conversation than it is, especially in today's atmosphere?

 

Because the only people interested in a NSL are those on the junior half of their airline's seniority list, at the regionals or furloughed/layed off.

The only way we could ever make headway with a NSL is incrementally. We'll never get it done in one fell swoop.