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Remind me what we got in return for accepting Field Standby? Was it less because " they will never use it"?
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Originally Posted by Dragon7
(Post 2338604)
Remind me what we got in return for accepting Field Standby? Was it less because " they will never use it"?
now you don't get paid for the first two, but get paid an hour for any after that. (whether you break guarantee or not) I would love it to see some historical analysis on which of those methods proved to be more lucrative for the pilots. I realize there have been many other changes (FAR 117) but we certainly seem to have more FSBs now than in the past. |
As I understand in their last contract, SWA got some significant, yuge even, improvements to reserve, anyone know what they gave up?
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Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
(Post 2314914)
We have three threads on this board that have turned into reserve threads. So lets start our own conversation.
I will start by saying that I don't mind being on reserve and bid the 787 knowing full well I would be on it for years. I understand that SC is necessary and will always commute in to be available. I also understand FSB may be necessary sometimes and sit in ops as required. The requirements of reserves are the same at every airline and will never change. With that said the issue at United is the lack of rules for reserves and the confusion it causes within the pilot ranks and scheduling. There are 3 "Quick Question about legality" threads and 2 RSV handholding sticky threads on the front page of the other forum. If RSV is so good and the best its ever been why is there so much confusion 5 years in to our contract? Its because there are no rules or examples in the contract its a free for all. Scheduling owns pilots on reserve from midnight on the first day until midnight on the last day plus all of there RDOs and FDOs. Its out of control. Here are some examples: 1. They schedule so many SCs every day that they run out of coverage for last minute flights. EX: Just 2 days ago. 10+ RSV in SFO 787FO with 4-6 days of availability, all were given a SC and at 8pm CDG opened for the next day, so who was available to cover it only a 2 day guy. He was rolled 2 days. Thats stupid, and uncalled for. 2. Scheduling waits until midnight the day before to build and assign SCs because of the 15hr rule. If the assignment is build within 15hrs its assignable immediately. they sit all day to make sure flying is covered then send out phone calls that wake everyone up at midnight to assign a SC for the next day. Do they really not know whats going to happen on an international fleet more than 10 hrs out? 3. They schedule the 1 and 2 day pilots for the 7am SC. The only trips that SC covers is the 5/6 day HGH and CTU. If you get called out for that trip you are getting 4-5 days rolled. They do this because they can give reserves their 36hrs free from duty away from base. EX: I have sat SC for three days out of 4 then was sent on a 6 day HGH SC. I was at work for 9 days straight. The kicker? There were several 5-6 day pilots on RSV that day but they were all on 8pm SCs. The overbuilding of SCs is causing coverage issues and the pilots pay for it. I could keep going but those are three first hand examples of what I consider unacceptable scheduling practices allowed by our contract. Four things could be fixed in our contract and we would have the best reserve rules in the industry: 1. All SCs and FSB MUST be built by 11am the day prior with exception given to IROPS. this allows planning for the pilots life. 2. A cap on SCs assigned per month. If you want more than the cap have it, pick up as many as you want. 3. Every SC and FSB should be considered duty, 117 considers it duty, and should be paid at 5hrs toward guarantee. 4. SCs SHALL be built based on historic needs. With start times and number assigned that make sense with fleet/base/seat. This would prevent scheduling from putting a pilot on SC just because. One day I'm going to be VERY senior and I will still fight for the junior pilot. As Oldmako said "I want to leave this place in better shape than I had it". I want the Reserve FO sitting next to me to look over at me and say life is good! I want to see pilots fly the aircraft they want and do the type of flying they want in the seat they want without worry of QOL. These changes are not unobtainable and I will allow my union reps to negotiate. These items are also not a automatic no or yes for me, they are just things I would like to see. There is difference between complaining and *****ing. Complaining is annoying and gets nothing accomplished, most people that complain have no ideas on how to fix the problem. *****ing gets results because most people who ***** have an idea on how to make it better. I have yet to see anyone on this board complain about reserve. So lets pull together as a pilot group in 2019 and figure out how to make EVERY section of the contract bette from the #1 pilot to the #13,000 pilot. |
market based solution
here's a proposal
have the neg cmtee seek in the next contract a "commuter election." pilots can elect to work under the in-base or commuting option. then adjust pay rates to reflect the desired work rules, reserve rules, and commuter flight options. cost it all out. if some pilots want to commute and have their "improvements", they can accept the cost. if others want to live in base and don't need "improvements", they can opt for the in-base rates. i can see the steam coming from the heads of the commuters looking for a better deal for themselves already let it fly, boys |
I liked the old short call or long call way.
73 hours guarantee if on short call line, 70 if long call. Rolling days off is not good, nor is having HDOs in a block. Wish we can split them. |
Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive
(Post 2338901)
I liked the old short call or long call way.
73 hours guarantee if on short call line, 70 if long call. Rolling days off is not good, nor is having HDOs in a block. Wish we can split them. i can tell you the intl trips are diff than domestic. they're longer and can't really be split for coverage. but if pilots want to elect the option, with the adjusted rates, go for it the commuter option could have: pos space commutes in aisle seat hotel night before or after trip full crew desk transparency no harassing "short" calls long calls (15 hrs ?) laundry drop-off uber ride to commuter airport (no need for airport car) fixed days off. they can just up the num on wb reserve to cover those six day trips whatever. put it all in the option. and adjust the pay rates to balance whatever the costs are and let pilots elect one option or the other 98% will vote for this system so the commuters to reserve will have what they want a very modest proposal |
Conversely, how about we just work on getting back some of the better aspects that we used to have, which we gave away for nothing?
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Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2338918)
Conversely, how about we just work on getting back some of the better aspects that we used to have, which we gave away for nothing?
if not, then you don't know what trades or exchanges were made this assumption that the company and the group can improve one area of the contract without costing somewhere else is just - not even sophomorish. even college sophomores understand this do we still have pilots on property without college degrees ? this is really basic stuff Mako |
so no "conversely"
how about the union just follow my proposal why are you afraid of that? maybe the rates will be the same - if there's really no "cost" |
Originally Posted by ugleeual
(Post 2338186)
lesson learned for all on RSV... don't answer the phone until after midnight on your last day off. If you answer earlier your fault if you get hosed.
I recommend all RSV experts on this forum sit down and read 20-K and 20-I-6 of the contract a few times. Then read it a few more times. You get a CDW at 1800 on LDO for a reason. It is duty and starts 30/168 clock running or interrupts a time free from duty. If you have an assignment placed prior to 1800 you have to acknowledge which then satisfies the two way contact requirements. And for SC or FSB, there is no automated check in available. Lee |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2338918)
Conversely, how about we just work on getting back some of the better aspects that we used to have, which we gave away for nothing?
Look, we can negotiate any thing but it all has a cost. In the end, it may not cause us to loose anything.......other than something else, say vacation or training pay per day. It all goes to the bottom line of the cost of the CBA. Not right just is. Surveys will be forthcoming and I recommend that all participate. That said, the union will and really must follow the guidance of the whole pilot group. That is the fact of the matter. Sacrifices will be made in other areas to capture gains in QWL if that is the will of the total pilot group. Just realize, how we cost items differs greatly from how the company values them. We meet somewhere in the middle ground. As a much wiser pilot once said, never give up work rules as they'll cost twice as much to get back (Rick D.). I won't rehash LUAL BK history, other than so much was given to save an A plan that was dead day one of BK. They just had target fixation, as did many of the pilot group. PW sold you a turd and a majority of the pilots voted for it. We are where we are now because of those monumental mistakes by the "leadership " and the pilots that said yes. If all is so bad, I recommend a leave of absence. Or, do what I did and take a voluntary furlough. It worked great for me. But, I don't hang my hat on hoping this company succeeds. I came back because it worked for Me and mine. When you get a chance, sit down and compare BK 1 and 2 contracts to what we now have........ Is it perfect, no. Is it LCO rules, far from it. Did it "cost" to get to where we are today, yes. Grow up boys and girls. You might be willing to burn down the house over RSV rules. Unfortunately your contemporaries may not be. Majority rules. Lee |
Originally Posted by LeeFXDWG
(Post 2338925)
And get me vacation override back too. When you stop smoking whatever you are smoking, let me know.....
Look, we can negotiate any thing but it all has a cost. In the end, it may not cause us to loose anything.......other than something else, say vacation or training pay per day. It all goes to the bottom line of the cost of the CBA. Not right just is. Surveys will be forthcoming and I recommend that all participate. That said, the union will and really must follow the guidance of the whole pilot group. That is the fact of the matter. Sacrifices will be made in other areas to capture gains in QWL if that is the will of the total pilot group. Just realize, how we cost items differs greatly from how the company values them. We meet somewhere in the middle ground. As a much wiser pilot once said, never give up work rules as they'll cost twice as much to get back (Rick D.). I won't rehash LUAL BK history, other than so much was given to save an A plan that was dead day one of BK. They just had target fixation, as did many of the pilot group. PW sold you a turd and a majority of the pilots voted for it. We are where we are now because of those monumental mistakes by the "leadership " and the pilots that said yes. If all is so bad, I recommend a leave of absence. Or, do what I did and take a voluntary furlough. It worked great for me. But, I don't hang my hat on hoping this company succeeds. I came back because it worked for Me and mine. When you get a chance, sit down and compare BK 1 and 2 contracts to what we now have........ Is it perfect, no. Is it LCO rules, far from it. Did it "cost" to get to where we are today, yes. Grow up boys and girls. You might be willing to burn down the house over RSV rules. Unfortunately your contemporaries may not be. Majority rules. Lee i have tears in my eyes beautiful |
Originally Posted by buscappy
(Post 2338937)
i have tears in my eyes
beautiful |
Originally Posted by buscappy
(Post 2338937)
i have tears in my eyes
beautiful Oldmako has much wisdom and experience to offer. It's just occasionally skewed by a personal agenda. As I politely council many PDR submitters, your ignorance of the contract doesn't make it illegal. Your union gives you a color coded contract that had functional links to joint interpretations as well as an interactive index at the end of it. Heck, the company now even loads that version to the content locker. Much of the whining I encounter is baseless. It's based mostly on ignorance of the rules of engagement. RSV improvements might better be done through establishing limits on daily quotas for LSR SC FSB. Not necessarily changing the whole system. It will all have a value in the end game. Where do we as group want to spend our capital in Section 6 is the question. For instance, with all the base closings, realignment of flying going on, I'd sacrifice some of pay raise to make the company pony up fair market value for a pilot forced out of a category after say three months on the market. What would that cost us? No idea. Is it the right thing to do? IMO yes. Now, do all pilots feel that way? No. It's all about your personal perspective. Dean's (OldMako) is from a reality long gone. Welcome to the new world. Lee |
I'm finishing a 4-day trip tomorrow that was assigned to me while on reserve where I'm scheduled to land at 2340. Also, tomorrow is the last day my scheduled reserve block of days.
If my flight is delayed (flying out of SFO so probably will be) and I don't land until Monday, then I'll be landing on a day off. My question: is there a certain period of time I must work into Monday before UAL will restore my day off or give me the 4 hours of add pay (1 min, 1 hr, etc...)? |
Originally Posted by Tank21
(Post 2338950)
I'm finishing a 4-day trip tomorrow that was assigned to me while on reserve where I'm scheduled to land at 2340. Also, tomorrow is the last day my scheduled reserve block of days.
If my flight is delayed (flying out of SFO so probably will be) and I don't land until Monday, then I'll be landing on a day off. My question: is there a certain period of time I must work into Monday before UAL will restore my day off or give me the 4 hours of add pay (1 min, 1 hr, etc...)? read that reassignment section. it's in there. |
Originally Posted by Tank21
(Post 2338950)
I'm finishing a 4-day trip tomorrow that was assigned to me while on reserve where I'm scheduled to land at 2340. Also, tomorrow is the last day my scheduled reserve block of days.
If my flight is delayed (flying out of SFO so probably will be) and I don't land until Monday, then I'll be landing on a day off. My question: is there a certain period of time I must work into Monday before UAL will restore my day off or give me the 4 hours of add pay (1 min, 1 hr, etc...)? Chose the Hotline option. I wouldn't recommend answers from this forum for contract legality issues. You have after submission the resources you pay dues for, SSC, negotiating committee and grievance just to name a few. And the resources to help get something not right fixed. Just a suggestion from a dude that takes those inquiries. Lee |
Originally Posted by Tank21
(Post 2338950)
I'm finishing a 4-day trip tomorrow that was assigned to me while on reserve where I'm scheduled to land at 2340. Also, tomorrow is the last day my scheduled reserve block of days.
If my flight is delayed (flying out of SFO so probably will be) and I don't land until Monday, then I'll be landing on a day off. My question: is there a certain period of time I must work into Monday before UAL will restore my day off or give me the 4 hours of add pay (1 min, 1 hr, etc...)? |
Originally Posted by fanaticalflyer
(Post 2338958)
Just one minute for a reserve. 4 hours for a line holder.
Which section of the CBA covers it? Min days off? Expand on a useless answer and give guidance. And I haven't seen the PDR hit my inbox yet. I just flew in from LHR so will probably not handle it. That said, it will be handled by those that know the CBA and QCd by even more. Lee |
Originally Posted by LeeFXDWG
(Post 2338924)
You may not have to answer, but there are situations you are required to acknowledge an assignment made prior to 1800 on LDO. Sometimes the company shall advise a pilot which is done with a voice mail, sometimes not, they can just place it in your schedule. If the assignment was made prior to 1800, then you must establish two way contact or they will call at 0001.
I recommend all RSV experts on this forum sit down and read 20-K and 20-I-6 of the contract a few times. Then read it a few more times. You get a CDW at 1800 on LDO for a reason. It is duty and starts 30/168 clock running or interrupts a time free from duty. If you have an assignment placed prior to 1800 you have to acknowledge which then satisfies the two way contact requirements. And for SC or FSB, there is no automated check in available. Lee |
Originally Posted by Airhoss
(Post 2337820)
You know what???????
Just a month or two ago, right here on this United page, right here on APC. Some ignoramuses made a comment as to the effect that we don't need to fix reserve BECAUSE anybody who's on reserve did it to themselves therefore deserve what they get. My point EXACTLY was that; NO!! sometimes when things aren't good with the airline industry that you can become totally accidentally a reserve guy for a LONG LONG time against your will. That is why reserve needs to be fixed. An example of this is short call. Commuters hate it. Locals LOVE it. And the current LC to SC conversion is more lucrative than the old pure LC or SC lines, especially since scheduling has found SC to be more flexible than LC. There aren't many (any?) no-cost changes to reserve that will be considered improvements by everyone. |
I'm local and I hate SC. The list of reasons is too long to list. I get it. Some may disagree with me. And your right, if you don't live local, you might as well move. There's very few days outside of flying days where I do not sit SC.
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Originally Posted by Otters
(Post 2339303)
I'm local and I hate SC. The list of reasons is too long to list. I get it. Some may disagree with me. And your right, if you don't live local, you might as well move. There's very few days outside of flying days where I do not sit SC.
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Originally Posted by bigfatdaddy
(Post 2339366)
If I may ask what fleet/base/domicile are you on? I am able to control my sc days through agressive pickup, often most of my reserve period is long call. 777/ORD
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Originally Posted by buscappy
(Post 2339404)
anyone know how the pilot lingo picked up the word "aggressive" in picking up trips that are open? consulting several dictionaries, one finds: angry, threatening, forcefully, menacing, militant. i know guys on reserve can get like this on the forum ���� but are y'all really being aggressive with the poor crew schedulers ? or just proactive?
"20-K-8 Aggressive Pick-Up. A Reserve may pick-up an assignment on a first-come first-served basis" It has different provisions than if assigned by scheduling. For instance, if assigned by scheduling you're released from a current SC. But, "20-K-8-f If a Short Call Reserve aggressively picks up a Trip for the following day, he must remain telephone available for the duration of the current Short Call assignment" |
ahh thanks
i think next round they should change it to proactive pickup. aggressiveness does not comport with the working together guidelines ;) |
I believe Aggressive Pickups are against United's Flying Together Guidelines... just sayin.
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Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2339144)
Since I being hired in 2000, I've held a line ~8 months total. Maybe as high as 10 months. I'd definitely like to see reserve improvements. But I'll say this one more time: what one reserve considers to be an onerous reserve rule, many times there's another reserve who loves that rule. So while 'fixing' reserve sounds great, different reserve pilots are going to want different 'fixes' to.
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Originally Posted by Lurchi
(Post 2339582)
I'm confused....flying for 17 yrs and been on reserve for all but 8 months....was that a typo? I haven't started training yet, but as a planned commuter to SFO im hoping to get off reserve and hold a line in 6 months....am I being overly optimistic? 17 yrs of reserve and I think I would look for a cliff to jump off.
The very same thing could happen again. Hopefully not. When I was hired as a 727 FE many of my Captains had only been a Capt for a couple of years. They had been FE's themselves for 17 years, FO's for 2 years, and then Captains. You never know how it is going to turn out. |
Originally Posted by buscappy
(Post 2339551)
ahh thanks
i think next round they should change it to proactive pickup. aggressiveness does not comport with the working together guidelines ;) |
Originally Posted by Lurchi
(Post 2339582)
I'm confused....flying for 17 yrs and been on reserve for all but 8 months....was that a typo? I haven't started training yet, but as a planned commuter to SFO im hoping to get off reserve and hold a line in 6 months....am I being overly optimistic? 17 yrs of reserve and I think I would look for a cliff to jump off.
Hired 2000, furloughed 2002. Recalled 2007, stayed on mil leave until 2008. Went out on mil leave in 2009 before being furloughed. Furloughed while on mil leave. Recalled to the LCAL side in 2012. Out on LTD in 2013 Returned to flying in 2015. So a total of a bit more than 5 years on reserve, with large breaks for extended vacations. |
Originally Posted by Lurchi
(Post 2339582)
I'm confused....flying for 17 yrs and been on reserve for all but 8 months....was that a typo? I haven't started training yet, but as a planned commuter to SFO im hoping to get off reserve and hold a line in 6 months....am I being overly optimistic? 17 yrs of reserve and I think I would look for a cliff to jump off.
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How many Short Calls per Bid period the company is allowed to assign a pilot or a pilot pick up for extra pay?
Is there a maximum? |
Originally Posted by Sniper66
(Post 2340088)
How many Short Calls per Bid period the company is allowed to assign a pilot or a pilot pick up for extra pay?
Is there a maximum? I was scheduled for 8 SC's one month and not used on any of them. I subsequently received 6 hours of add pay because of it. |
Originally Posted by Sniper66
(Post 2340088)
How many Short Calls per Bid period the company is allowed to assign a pilot or a pilot pick up for extra pay?
Is there a maximum? So no, I don't think there's a maximum but you don't get assigned/can't pick up SCs if your available days don't fit their silos. |
Originally Posted by Tank21
(Post 2340102)
After 2 unused SC's, you get 1 hour of add pay per SC with no maximum that I know of.
I was scheduled for 8 SC's one month and not used on any of them. I subsequently received 6 hours of add pay because of it. Yes and no. There are some minor technicalities to the proper solution. While you might want to consider it "add pay", the addition is actually added to your MPG. In order to get paid for the SC, it must remain "unused". You will see additions of 1 hour pay for each unused SC after your second and up through the 5th regardless as to whether you pick it up or it is assigned. After your 5th, contractually you are only to be paid on those SC's that are assigned. I won't comment on how IT is dealing with the determination of "assigned" v "aggressively picked up" as that is not prudent on a public forum. :) |
Originally Posted by skypest
(Post 2340202)
Yes and no. There are some minor technicalities to the proper solution. While you might want to consider it "add pay", the addition is actually added to your MPG.
In order to get paid for the SC, it must remain "unused". You will see additions of 1 hour pay for each unused SC after your second and up through the 5th regardless as to whether you pick it up or it is assigned. After your 5th, contractually you are only to be paid on those SC's that are assigned. I won't comment on how IT is dealing with the determination of "assigned" v "aggressively picked up" as that is not prudent on a public forum. :) |
Originally Posted by Tank21
(Post 2340215)
I've never aggressively picked up a SC, only assigned by scheduling.
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Originally Posted by Sniper66
(Post 2340088)
How many Short Calls per Bid period the company is allowed to assign a pilot or a pilot pick up for extra pay?
Is there a maximum? |
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