Reserve Thread
 

We have three threads on this board that have turned into reserve threads. So lets start our own conversation.

I will start by saying that I don't mind being on reserve and bid the 787 knowing full well I would be on it for years. I understand that SC is necessary and will always commute in to be available. I also understand FSB may be necessary sometimes and sit in ops as required. The requirements of reserves are the same at every airline and will never change.

With that said the issue at United is the lack of rules for reserves and the confusion it causes within the pilot ranks and scheduling. There are 3 "Quick Question about legality" threads and 2 RSV handholding sticky threads on the front page of the other forum. If RSV is so good and the best its ever been why is there so much confusion 5 years in to our contract? Its because there are no rules or examples in the contract its a free for all. Scheduling owns pilots on reserve from midnight on the first day until midnight on the last day plus all of there RDOs and FDOs. Its out of control.

Here are some examples:

1. They schedule so many SCs every day that they run out of coverage for last minute flights. EX: Just 2 days ago. 10+ RSV in SFO 787FO with 4-6 days of availability, all were given a SC and at 8pm CDG opened for the next day, so who was available to cover it only a 2 day guy. He was rolled 2 days. Thats stupid, and uncalled for.

2. Scheduling waits until midnight the day before to build and assign SCs because of the 15hr rule. If the assignment is build within 15hrs its assignable immediately. they sit all day to make sure flying is covered then send out phone calls that wake everyone up at midnight to assign a SC for the next day. Do they really not know whats going to happen on an international fleet more than 10 hrs out?

3. They schedule the 1 and 2 day pilots for the 7am SC. The only trips that SC covers is the 5/6 day HGH and CTU. If you get called out for that trip you are getting 4-5 days rolled. They do this because they can give reserves their 36hrs free from duty away from base. EX: I have sat SC for three days out of 4 then was sent on a 6 day HGH SC. I was at work for 9 days straight. The kicker? There were several 5-6 day pilots on RSV that day but they were all on 8pm SCs. The overbuilding of SCs is causing coverage issues and the pilots pay for it.

I could keep going but those are three first hand examples of what I consider unacceptable scheduling practices allowed by our contract. Four things could be fixed in our contract and we would have the best reserve rules in the industry:

1. All SCs and FSB MUST be built by 11am the day prior with exception given to IROPS. this allows planning for the pilots life.

2. A cap on SCs assigned per month. If you want more than the cap have it, pick up as many as you want.

3. Every SC and FSB should be considered duty, 117 considers it duty, and should be paid at 5hrs toward guarantee.

4. SCs SHALL be built based on historic needs. With start times and number assigned that make sense with fleet/base/seat. This would prevent scheduling from putting a pilot on SC just because.

One day I'm going to be VERY senior and I will still fight for the junior pilot. As Oldmako said "I want to leave this place in better shape than I had it". I want the Reserve FO sitting next to me to look over at me and say life is good! I want to see pilots fly the aircraft they want and do the type of flying they want in the seat they want without worry of QOL. These changes are not unobtainable and I will allow my union reps to negotiate. These items are also not a automatic no or yes for me, they are just things I would like to see.

There is difference between complaining and *****ing. Complaining is annoying and gets nothing accomplished, most people that complain have no ideas on how to fix the problem. *****ing gets results because most people who ***** have an idea on how to make it better. I have yet to see anyone on this board complain about reserve. So lets pull together as a pilot group in 2019 and figure out how to make EVERY section of the contract bette from the #1 pilot to the #13,000 pilot.

There are some errors and misconceptions in your post. I had a full rebuttal but it got wiped out.

I'll just ask this about reserve. If it's that bad, why do so many senior pilots in my fleet/domicile bid reserve?

You only have 28 FOs in your fleet/base/seat. SFO 787FO has 333 there's probably 10-15 FOs that bid reserve and they are all right at the G-Line so I'm not even sure if they are doing it on purpose.

I think the real question should be if reserve is so good why is WB FO so junior?

Also let me know what those inconsistencies are because everyone of those was PDR'd and FODM'd and I lost every single argument.

WB FO goes junior because there are pilots who live local, want to bid RSV, and make a good solid wage and never work. Most pilots want to make a lot of $$$... so they want to be line holders on smaller equipment and pick up every trip possible. Beauty of this profession is everyone has a choice (except for new hires <year on property)... issue comes up when pilots bid equipment that makes them junior (NB Captain or WB FO on RSV) and then they complain because they don't like the RSV rules. I'm a WB RSV pilot and flew about 70 days last year... I don't have any complaints. I have tons of buds on WB RSV at EWR/IAD/ORD that are working about the same... no complaints from them either. Still a lot of movement happening... so bid what you want and live with the rules that are currently in place... not the rules you hope will be created to benefit RSV... it probably won't happen.

I'm lower than 28 in my fleet/base/seat. But there are senior Capts that also bid reserve in my fleet/base.

WB FO is junior? In EWR and SFO, but everything's junior in EWR and SFO.

Hmm. You lost every argument. That should tell you that you need to dig through the contract a bit. Start with LCs vs SCs flying into days off - it's in the contract.

As far as being called for SC, I'm almost always called at decent waking hours, not midnight.

For strange hour SCs, I've asked schedulers about them before. New schedulers won't know, but I've always been given logical answers from experienced schedulers.


I'm not ecstatic about reserve but I bid it with eyes wide open. I've learned to make it work for me.

I lifted this from an earlier thread titled "Fixes to Reserve" from December '15.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/u...s-reserve.html

I'm too lazy to revisit and amend it right now as I am on vacation. Please excuse my lethargy. I gave it a few nips and tucks. I figured at least that I could offer up a contribution, just to annoy a special few and (hopefully) and add some additional perspective.

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To reiterate for those new to this argument who may have not been here, these are a few of the wonderful changes that have slowly crept into what was a negotiated LC/SC system.

1. First In-First Out used to be published and easy to follow. It kept scheduling honest and gave a reserve guy an easy way to determine where he stood. Any out of FIFO assignments were instantly apparent and as a result seldom happened. Now, who knows?

2. There was a very limited amount of SC's published per day for a given BES. On the bus in DC, it was typically 2 or 3 per day. Now? I've seen 8-10. Yes, they pay an hour but only after you've given them the first two. There are plenty of guys who would rather be on LC than SC irrespective of the stipend.

Furthermore, all SC's were published at 0900 each day. By about 1100L, they had all been assigned. If you didn't get one, you were virtually guaranteed LC the next day. I was never assigned a SC late in the evening for the next day. Now its the norm. Two weeks ago they called me at 0100 for a SC the next day.

3. Rolling days off used to be a rarity. In some BES they still are. But ask the guys in the understaffed bases what the months of May through September are like. Good luck making plans.

4. FSB's used to pay 5 hours. Now, they're essentially freebies.

5. Under the old system, I was never called a few hours after beginning an SC and then told to head to the 'drome and perform a FSB (instead) during that same duty period. Now, its happened several times.

6. Likewise, I was never called just a few hours after beginning a SC assignment only to be told, "you're released from SC...but now you're on SC tomorrow at "X" o'clock. FIFO?? Nah. They keep you rolling in SC limbo.

7. There used to be a mythical "4 hour" show time. Well, was that 4 hours to ops or to the jet? Who knew? No one knew and it was great.
It was also seldom a problem. Now, its 2.5 hours to ops and its in black and white. That was a hell of a concession. Especially those few bases with multiple airports. IAD - JFK - LAX - etc. Major metropolitan areas with major traffic. Hell, its what, 60 miles IAD to BWI? That's over an hour in the middle of the night.

8. SC's were seldom handed out to a pilot on day one of a SILO, or on his last day. That was one of the main gets when we got the LC/SC system. That's HUGE. Thats GONE.

This is just a small sample. There are some excellent posts on the other forum that do a much better job of 'splaining to Lucy some of the more creative and egregious reserve shenanigans that are now routine.

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"Tawk amongst yourselves"

You nailed it! The lack of consistency and transparency is frustrating.
Weekends they always throw everyone on SC and then use 1-2 day guys with FDOs to cover any drop ins.
If you want 1 or 10 SC guys I don't care but make it consistent. Assigning everyone a SC then rolling guys days just because they can with no recourse shouldn't be the normal way we operate.

I'm same base/fleet as you so I hear ya! Is it horrible? No, and I commute as well, but there is a more logical way to assign SCs and still ensure coverage to protect the integrity of the operation.
The reason they do is because they can.

They have found a way around the contract's "intent." ALPA didn't envision a reserve system like this that just "floats in perpetuity." The lack of consistency for the pilots is total consistency for management. They consistently know how to work-around our hard fought rules governing consistency. The "perpetual roll" equals "revolving and total coverage."

ALPA used to say..."don't worry you won't be on reserve long." Well, 4 years later, still on reserve. I am glad I ain't hearing that anymore.

If our reps sat reserve they would "get it."

Bingo! If you want 10 SCs a day that's fine but don't build 15 just because you have can.

SFO 787FO get a 7am and a 10am usually to 1-2 day guys. Then they build 3 6pm and 3 8pm, all logical and good coverage. Then they get a bunch of pilots checking in on the same day and they assign 3 1pm and 2 7pm and extra 10am......WHY? Thee only answer I ever get is we need to cover the operation.

Agreed, the only reason they can get around the contract is because there are no walls to prevent them in the reserve section. There are only a couple examples in the entire section and even those are vague.

You are LAX777 right? There are 27 active FOs. Anyways that doesn't matter.

I'm up to speed on flying into days off, happens a lot to me, so what did I say that was wrong?

Glad crew sked calls you at a descent hour because I assure you that's not the case for RSV on the 787 in SFO. Calls at midnight for a SC the next day is common practice.

As far as WB being junior there are 3 year seniority pilots on the 777 in ORD, DCA, EWR, SFO, on the 747 in SFO and the 787 in SFO. Please tell me why that is.

read my earlier post on why WB 777 going junior.

There are many younger pilots who are happy making 73-75 hours of 777/787 pay and not work. To make the equivalent amount of pay on the 756 you would need to work 90+ hours each month... and 100+ on a NB.

Pretty simple actually why guys/gals are bidding it...

I don't understand your reasoning here. It looks to me like you just made an argument for why WB FO should be senior?

The reserve section in the CBA is currently being used as a door stop over in the crew pay department. When they are done with it, they will consider giving it back to the crew desk to be used as giant paperweight.

But it's perfectly clear about release to 10 hours of FAR rest. Three examples just to be sure there's no doubt.

I love my job here at United and feel this job is 85 percent as good as it could / should be. That said I'm with you guys 100 percent with wanting to make reserve a little better. And I too support the the idea that I always try to leave a place a little better off than how I found it. Having been involuntarily on reserve for 2 years since being hired I have seen quite a few examples of things that shocked me were legit after filing PDRs.

Getting rid of the freedom to roll our days off without limits is top on my list. We should also be paid add pay for rolled days off and be able to restore the day where we choose, not where the company chooses. My regional had these provisions.

Get rid of the unused provision in SC/FSB pay. As well as paying for every one, not after the first two and up through the 5th only.

Build all SC and FSB assignments by 10am the day prior. Except in the case of irregular ops.

Fix the recent implementation of only being able to pick up
a trip in your silo in the 1100 STT once your reserve days have started. Silo minus 1 has always been allowed until recently.

There are more I would support but these are the biggies.

That's not cool. You've bent the data beyond recognition. Previous post:

There were 319 SFO 787 FOs listed in the March awards. I haven't gone through to see how many are active, but I can guarantee you that it's less than 333.

As far as WB FO going junior, that should be 'fixed' when the whale gets parked. ... I don't consider WB FO to be junior (most can hold left seat narrowbody), but I base my opinion off of more than the junior man in seat.

I've made peace with the reserve system. If the reserve system changes, I'll make peace with the new system.

Not sure what I bent out of recognition? If 5 pilots bid RSV voluntarily in LAX 777 FO then RSV is voluntary. If 7 pilots bid RSV in SFO 787 FO then 53 more will still be given RSV.

Go look st the APR staffing page 331 active 787 FOs in SFO;) so I GURANTEE you you are wrong.

So now you're going to change from present tense to future tense. Interesting. ... you DO know that 331 (a dubious and optimistic number) is less than 333, right? So that would make me correct.

You voluntarily bid WB FO so by proxy you voluntary bid reserve for several years.

It's not really that important to me, but I can't understand why someone who has less than 4 years on property would bid WB FO knowing that he'd be on reserve for years, then has the gall to complain about the reserve system. You were on property long enough to know how the reserve system worked well before you were awarded SFO 787.

I see now you didn't read my first post......Didn't even make it past the second sentence.

20 years ago, when UAL reserve was just FIFO, everybody was short call. Very transparent. Unfortunately over the years complexity has been thrust upon us, some by the Feds, some self-inflicted.

Some of it has been an improvement. The lack of transparency is unfortunately a negative side effect.

We have some great things in our current reserve system, like most of the time you are on long call. We never had that 20 years ago. This is a HUGE improvement. You get paid for SC after 2, which we didn't get 20 years ago.

The vast majority of us like our current system. Can it be improved? Yes. FSB should absolutely be paid. 5 hours credit, or 2 or 3 add pay. You are showing up for work. M5D should apply.

Maybe a bit more reliability in how they assign SC's.

If you are on a global fleet, your days off are going to be rolled occasionally. Sorry. You knew it before you bid it. It is what it is. If you are domestic they can break up a 4 day trip and get you home on time. If you are on a 7 day international trip, there is no way to break it up.

As for WB FO going very jr, it is just cyclical. When there is movement, it goes junior. If we are stagnant, not so much. If we furlough 15% of our pilots, WB FO will go to 6500 as the JR guy, and narrow body CAP will go to 5500.

In 21 years I could have been a 3 year CAP. 3 years after that I was a very junior 757 FO, 4 years after that I was a junior 10 year CAP, 3 years later I was a 13 mid level 757 FO.

It is a roller coaster. Hop in, strap in, and hold on.

All I know is I had to work 5 days last month!! WTH? That's too much!! I'm used to 2-3 days. RSV is getting onerous. ;)

I read your entire first post. Any unbiased observer can see that based on my previous responses.

Sadly, you've decided to attack me because I haven't acted like a mindless bobblehead, agreeing with your self-inflicted plight.

To make matters even worse, your father is/was a Captain at United so had you consulted with him, he likely should have told you that you wouldn't see a decent WB FO schedule for many years.

Feel free to bend the numbers well beyond fiction and make sure to continue to attack anyone who points out holes in your thesis. it's time for me to walk away from this silly thread because you're simply going to dismiss anyone who points out your errors. This isn't worth my time.

Probe, spot on. It'll be interesting to see how different Master of Puppets' tune will be in a few years. At this point, the only thing I take away from this thread is that it's very self-serving. Completely different than those that were lineholders who suddenly find themselves on reserve.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm going to my 2nd consecutive landings class....you are working waaaay to hard Sled! 😬

I agree with everything you said Probe. So let's keep going with making things better. Let's not stop. I want to look back in 20 years and say you junior pilots don't know how good you have it.

Reserve here isn't that bad but let's make it better where we can.

No, not everyone knows the reserve rules. Since times are good now, many pilots are bidding new equipment, or being bumped in the case of the 747. There are vast numbers of pilots that have absolutely no idea how reserve works anymore. So much has changed, and they are blind sided at what is legal--yes, it's their fault for not doing their homework, but as I said, many have no idea about reserve today.

The basic point is, with minimal negotiating capital, we can make a very few changes to the contract and have a large increase in the QOL of the reserve. That, in my book, is every negotiators dream. The changes proposed by Mako, really wouldn't impact the availability for the company much either. It would improve predictability and transparency.

So, yes, I think we need improvements in reserve. Is it a good system today? I don't think so. Way back, when everyone was short call, not nearly as many people commuted, but your days off were your days off. No rolling days. Things are different than they used to be, my take would be not as good, but it could be, or better.

Do the contract surveys, talk to your reps, make resolutions at your council meetings. One thing I do agree with, is if you aren't willing to be part of the solution, then don't whine about something you don't like--well, ok, maybe a little. We are pilots after all...

i just finished my third landings class in a row! :cool:

The extension did more for reserves than you can image. On my aircraft every 3 or 4 day pairing is worth nearly $10K. When a trip pops in to open time those trips are immediately picked up by pilots in the double digit seniority. Then we have the reserves who live next to the airport and they volunteer (beg) for every trip trying to break guarantee.

I have not been to the airport since November 5th ( except for landings at Boeing). Every few days Scheduling calls me and gives me $328 for answering the phone. Looks like a line for April, don't know if I can afford the pay cut.:cool:

Yak02,

True. A wonderful unintended consequence. Guys on the triple in my domo are foaming at the mouth to go to work now, as well as slurp up the SC's. I am finally in my airline happy spot. However, being eternally optimistic (as well as belligerently antagonistic) I believe that there is room for improvement. ;)

TLDR: +1 vote for improvements can be made without costing you your extra dollar of pay next round. Fixing the system benefits you, whether on reserve or not, senior or not.
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Its been said, but the goal is really to capitalize on the fact that so many pilots want different things. Some don't want to work. some want to maximize money. Some want the most money for the least work. Some want specific days off, some will pick up every FSB they can, commutable schedules, etc. etc. etc.

The current FIFO system does not do this. Changing to a system that allows more preference on pick ups benefits everybody, even senior guys, even the company.

When something benefits senior guys, it then benefits junior guys. There are a lot of old dudes that would change their line bid to reserve in a heartbeat if it was more like Delta's. This would benefit junior guys that want to fly a line, or have their weekends off, or the dozen other preference items that would open if we allowed more preference.

This helps the company too. FIFO is mediocre at best for 90% of those on reserve. It prioritizes giving people the same treatment at the cost of the potential good deal for someone that would pick it up.
If we got a system that allowed for more preference in pick ups (seniority based), people would be more inclined to pick up the trips they want. The schedule would probably be covered much better, they'd have to call much less, and there there would be a lot less anxious schedulers/supervisors trying playing Jenga with the schedule/answer up the chain on coverage.

I have a friend that is moderately senior with Delta (13 years). He likes to maximize time off + home time, and with their system he can. He literally does not fly from Sep to March except for a landings class and the occasional pick up. I don't think he gets many short calls. He bids reserve in NY but lives in Dallas. During that time he works another job, practically full time (his employer is ok knowing the chances he might get called). He chooses to commute to reserve and loves it, even though he could easily hold a line with a great schedule. Half the year he gets another paycheck, and sleeps in his bed every night. I'm sure there are a lot of guys in their 60's that would bid like this, and open up their good deal, weekend off, etc. trips to you.

I think we could have this. Those that say, "I'd rather make an extra dollar than fix reserve"...well, that could be a little bit of a false dichotomy. Especially if the company knew they'd be better off with improvements. Yes, they would try to keep a strong position bargaining and threaten the 10 am rule, or no pay for short calls. They know we're not going to budge on those items. If they really knew this would reduce their costs and increase efficiency, they'd bite. Might as well try next round anyway, this leadership team seems to show more interest historically than the others in making improvements.

Fantastic post. Thanks.

"shack"

turkey shoot winner.

We have some great things in our current reserve system, like most of the time you are on long call.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Many, and I'll start with me disagree with this. I can count on one hand in my first 2.9 years how many times I wasn't on short call the first day of work. Now that I'm more senior and seeing weekends off, my short calls and FS usage has gone up because their is less open time vs weekends(I'm narrow body).

As you mentioned, transparency is gone. Yesterday I was released from short call once again, after only four hours, to be put on short call once again the next day. I asked the crew desk, "why such an early release?"
Their answer, "according to the SC matrix we needed this 0500 SC assigned." so the next day I'm given an assignment to deadhead. And now the really fun part. Once you are out of your own domicile, you are now considered a visiting reserve. Section 20 outlines this and unfortunately all legal. So now they can assign you trips from the other domicile all they want to INCLUDE HOLDING BACK OPEN TIME IN THAT DOMICILE(to give to a visiting reserve).I know this because it happened to me several weeks ago, filed a PDR, and ALPA committee member answering the PDR showed me the contract reference. So for the next 3 days I'm flying other domiciles ID's. Legal but not so much fun. And the worse part about this; It's opens time for you line holders that you never see. So for those that don't think improving reserve language can't impact line flying, think again.

Iv never sat domestic reserve so this is good gouge and another issue that needs to be added to the list

Got flown into an FDO last week under this provision but then, I pack for the block of days plus the FDO since I'm "top of the list" in every base but my own.

If I remember, right, AA used to have a provision where every pilot used to have to "endure" reserve 1 month every year. That kept even the bottom guy from having to be on reserve more than a couple months of the year. Every pilot on the list had "skin in the game" as far as reserve QOL.

Started a 5 day (Wed-Sun) reserve period and was called the night before my 5 day started to inform me that I was on a 1500 SC on my first day (Wed).

At 0100 on Thurs morning I was called and notified I was being released from my SC and being reassigned another SC starting at 1500 Thurs afternoon.

Then at 0630 Thurs morning, I was called again and when I answered, the scheduler clarified who I was, then I could here others talking in the background. Before I knew it, the original scheduler says to disregard her call and hung up.

Now I'm wide f**cking awake....!
I really wish there was some transparency in the way reserves are scheduled!!

That SUCKS man. But the 0630 call could have been avoided. When assigned a SC, you are released until that SC begins. Turn off your phone when you go to bed.

Not only that but if they call you again during your required rest period you may refuse the assignment and have them reset your rest.