Commutair stifling United markets they serve
05-04-2017, 07:11 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 260
Originally Posted by Half wing
Cfi's go straight into 175's. Why can't they go straight into Boeings? Also Turbo, if you offer put a guy on a mainline seniority list but told him/her they would start on an RJ at RJ rates, I bet most would take that offer in a heartbeat.
I can see that as being what the future holds if mainline ever decides to take RJ flying back. Pay will be roughly what is it now at some of the better paid regionals if you include bonuses etc. A new hire (CFI) is on the mainline seniority list, but seat locked on the 175/900 for a certain amount of time before being able to bid over to a narrow body aircraft.
05-05-2017, 01:17 AM
#92
Squawking 2000
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by Turbosina
The only solution in that case would be for mainline to hire guys directly. Are mainline training programs really set up to take 1,500 hour piston pilots straight into the right seat of a Boeing? I think not.
Now being intimately familiar with both regional and mainline flying, and with the peculiarities of both RJs and Boeings, I'd say the difference is nil.
Mainline carriers take on a huge number of former military pilots who, while greatly motivated and highly goal oriented, frequently are relatively low time pilots with zero knowledge of part 121 operations.
The learning curve is steep for them as well, but the training program is set up to accommodate that.
05-05-2017, 05:43 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by Turbosina
Amazing, the chip you have on your shoulder about regional pilots. You've got your seat, and your hefty paycheck (partially paid for by the money your airline saved by paying regional guys a fraction of the income you make.) So why should you even care what regional guys think?
I personally would have no problem with the regionals disappearing. (It won't happen unless somebody can figure out a way for mainline aircraft to operate those routes for the same cost as the regionals, because nobody in airline management gives a rip what the pilots think; it's all about the bottom line.)
But if that does happen, there needs to be some sort of way for pilots to go from 1,500 hours in a 172 to the right seat of a 121 carrier. In days long gone, you used to go fly checks and night freight until you had a few thousand hours, then go to a 'commuter,' then to mainline. The check carrying / night freight jobs are mostly gone. Take away the 'commuters' and now what? How are pilots going to move from that 172 to mainline?
The only solution in that case would be for mainline to hire guys directly. Are mainline training programs really set up to take 1,500 hour piston pilots straight into the right seat of a Boeing? I think not.
Or, sure, mainline could literally take back RJs, remove the word 'Express' from the paint job, and fly them at mainline. There are already pay rates for 76-seaters at DAL, right? But they're never going to do that unless the mainline new hires agree to work for the same wages as they earn now at regionals. Which would make the entire shift kind of pointless.
The regionals serve a purpose, as irritating as it may be to some of you.
But we can argue here all day long. None of us are making any of these decisions.
I personally would have no problem with the regionals disappearing. (It won't happen unless somebody can figure out a way for mainline aircraft to operate those routes for the same cost as the regionals, because nobody in airline management gives a rip what the pilots think; it's all about the bottom line.)
But if that does happen, there needs to be some sort of way for pilots to go from 1,500 hours in a 172 to the right seat of a 121 carrier. In days long gone, you used to go fly checks and night freight until you had a few thousand hours, then go to a 'commuter,' then to mainline. The check carrying / night freight jobs are mostly gone. Take away the 'commuters' and now what? How are pilots going to move from that 172 to mainline?
The only solution in that case would be for mainline to hire guys directly. Are mainline training programs really set up to take 1,500 hour piston pilots straight into the right seat of a Boeing? I think not.
Or, sure, mainline could literally take back RJs, remove the word 'Express' from the paint job, and fly them at mainline. There are already pay rates for 76-seaters at DAL, right? But they're never going to do that unless the mainline new hires agree to work for the same wages as they earn now at regionals. Which would make the entire shift kind of pointless.
The regionals serve a purpose, as irritating as it may be to some of you.
But we can argue here all day long. None of us are making any of these decisions.
05-05-2017, 05:57 AM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Originally Posted by Lambourne
The regional pilot double standard is alive and well. It's always mainline pilots fault for selling scope, creating the regional issue etc etc. Always pointing fingers at the legacy pilots as the reason for any unhappiness in their lives.
Yet, when the idea of killing the regional carriers is considered you complain about not having enough seats to find all of you jobs. At that point I'm sure you will complain about the selfish legacy pilots retaking scope and killing the Regional jobs.
Yet, when the idea of killing the regional carriers is considered you complain about not having enough seats to find all of you jobs. At that point I'm sure you will complain about the selfish legacy pilots retaking scope and killing the Regional jobs.
1. Regionals taking up too much mainline flying, and conversely mainline carriers being pressured by their management to give that revenue stream away in hopes of outsourcing it to a lower bidder. This strategic play assumes that the outsourced provider can maintain both quality of service and completion factor while providing the minimum required number of passengers to maintain the route and enhance revenue, but they are prepared to break even, and in some cases lose money.
2. Our unions, mainly ALPA knows it is a conflict of interest to have two dues paying bargaining units both paying dues to the same union, and both chasing the same revenue stream. Ask any ALPA lawyer, and they will indeed admit its a conflict of interest. But, they won't tell you what to do about it, and they won't say it's against DoL, and DoJ rules. The conflict of interest is a big deal. At the end of the day, mainline dues paying members need to put their big boy pants and panties on and man up and tell ALPA - ENOUGH!
3. Squeeze job lowering the price of a pilot, and the long term earning potential of the profession as a whole; being put on the profession by foreign flags of convenience schemes and subsidized operations with a combination of free/discounted airplanes, fuel, and labor.
05-05-2017, 08:28 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Guppy Gear Slinger
Posts: 1,854
Originally Posted by Half wing
Cfi's go straight into 175's. Why can't they go straight into Boeings? Also Turbo, if you offer put a guy on a mainline seniority list but told him/her they would start on an RJ at RJ rates, I bet most would take that offer in a heartbeat.
Unless something happens to change all those factors, which is extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future, the regionals are here to stay. Do I like it? No. But I'm just pointing out the realities.
05-05-2017, 08:35 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Guppy Gear Slinger
Posts: 1,854
Originally Posted by Omnipotent
Mainline would then go back to it's historic norm of mostly hiring military pilots along with some civilian pilots with well established resumes of flying jet a/c.
Could mainline take back all flying, add RJs to their operating certificates, and hire and train 1500 hour pilots to fly those aircraft at RJ pay rates? Of course they could. So why don't they? Answer that question, and the reasons for the continued existence of the regionals will be obvious.
05-05-2017, 08:57 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Originally Posted by Turbosina
The traditional military pipeline is no longer able to supply the needs of the major carriers, especially with the retirement wave that's coming.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/us-air-force-considering-stop-loss-to-keep-pilots-2017-4
The US Air Force has been shedding pilots over the last few years, so much so that it has begun to reconsider admission requirements and duty assignments and is weighing the possibility of paying pilots up to nearly $500,000 to stay in the service.
In addition to those inducements, the Air Force is reportedly considering more aggressive measures to retain fliers.
Air Mobility Command chief and Air Force Gen. Carlton Everhart told CQ Roll Call that he and other senior Air Force generals planned to meet with US airline executives in May to discuss ways to stem the outflux of pilots in a manner that benefits both the service and the airlines without resorting to "stop-loss," or involuntarily extending military personnel's tours of duty.
05-05-2017, 09:26 AM
#98
Squawking 2000
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 737
City pairs that were largely RJ routes are in fact coming back to mainline every month (SFO to PDX, RNO, even SMF). I just read that the hotel committee is approving acceptable options in FAT, SBA, CID, and FCA: all places I used to fly in Brasilias and CRJ 200s, now being flown in mainline narrow bodies paying multiple times more.
This is a very good thing for all of us, probably none more so than for those who fly planes with the word "Express" painted on the side.
This is a very good thing for all of us, probably none more so than for those who fly planes with the word "Express" painted on the side.
05-05-2017, 01:26 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,676
Originally Posted by Omnipotent
Mainline would then go back to it's historic norm of mostly hiring military pilots along with some civilian pilots with well established resumes of flying jet a/c.
Originally Posted by Turbosina
The traditional military pipeline is no longer able to supply the needs of the major carriers, especially with the retirement wave that's coming.
DAL's latest still had the AVERAGE mil trained pilot around 3400TT, although I think that number takes into account a combined background, but STILL high. There's a ways to go before their AVERAGE mil pilot is the 10 year/minimum commitment type with the 1500-1700TT for fighter and ~2500TT for multi crew.
Pre 9/11, the AVERAGE civilian/regional pilot was in the 4-5000TT range and 1000-1500 TPIC. DAL's latest civilian AVERAGE was ~6900TT.
The dark decade has created A LOT of pilots with more flight time than other hiring eras. And there's still a healthy supply of them at (insert regional/ACMI/LCC/ULCC carrier here). There's still mil pilots coming up on a 20 year mark, or even less waiting to separate.
There's still a ways to go before the AVERAGE civilian is a "low" as the pre 9/11 era.
Also keep in mind, there's more, WAY MORE pilots being hired now (mil and civ) with none or very little TPIC/AC time compared to 2007-2008 and pre 9/11.
YES, I KNOW, this is a UAL thread. But I seriously doubt those averages vary much from legacy to legacy.
Last edited by John Carr; 05-05-2017 at 01:37 PM.
05-05-2017, 03:23 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by Turbosina
Hokay...so...you're what, a six-month newhire regional FO?
Let's imagine your wish comes true tomorrow. Let's take your airline as an example. UAL, DL, AS, AA cooperate to get rid of 400+ Skywest RJs requiring some 4000 pilots. Yourself included.
They replace these 400+ RJs with, let's say, 200 B737-700s among them. That's roughly the same total seat capacity, say 25,000 seats, give or take a few hundred or thousand.
They now need a total of about 2,000 pilots to operate these aircraft. Not 4,000, as before.
So that leaves 2,000 pilots on the street. Yourself included, because you're super junior. You think "UAL taking back the flying" means they're just gonna give you a seat at mainline? Think again, dude.
Where you gonna get that multi turbine time now? The majors won't look at you. The fly-by-night turboprop freight/ check-cashing operators, which is how we all used to build turbine time before the regionals multiplied like rabbits, don't exist anymore. So what are you – you, personally, going to do?
Yes, it's infuriating that the D pay scale of the regional industry exists. But simply getting rid of all regionals will significantly reduce the number of pilots in this industry (you'll need far fewer crews to operate the smaller number of total aircraft). It will also deprive many, many people – yourself included – of a logical path to mainline. And don't you think that there are enough Part 135, 91K, or private 91 jobs to take up the slack and get you the turbine time you need. There aren't.
Plus, if you're a 6-month regional FO I'm guessing your TT and overall experience is nowhere near the level you'd need to be competitive at a Fortune 100 turbine flight department, or at Netjets, or at any other operator aside from "Ed's Car Parts and Airplane Charter." If you'd spent any real time in this industry you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm just saying. Be careful what you wish for.
Let's imagine your wish comes true tomorrow. Let's take your airline as an example. UAL, DL, AS, AA cooperate to get rid of 400+ Skywest RJs requiring some 4000 pilots. Yourself included.
They replace these 400+ RJs with, let's say, 200 B737-700s among them. That's roughly the same total seat capacity, say 25,000 seats, give or take a few hundred or thousand.
They now need a total of about 2,000 pilots to operate these aircraft. Not 4,000, as before.
So that leaves 2,000 pilots on the street. Yourself included, because you're super junior. You think "UAL taking back the flying" means they're just gonna give you a seat at mainline? Think again, dude.
Where you gonna get that multi turbine time now? The majors won't look at you. The fly-by-night turboprop freight/ check-cashing operators, which is how we all used to build turbine time before the regionals multiplied like rabbits, don't exist anymore. So what are you – you, personally, going to do?
Yes, it's infuriating that the D pay scale of the regional industry exists. But simply getting rid of all regionals will significantly reduce the number of pilots in this industry (you'll need far fewer crews to operate the smaller number of total aircraft). It will also deprive many, many people – yourself included – of a logical path to mainline. And don't you think that there are enough Part 135, 91K, or private 91 jobs to take up the slack and get you the turbine time you need. There aren't.
Plus, if you're a 6-month regional FO I'm guessing your TT and overall experience is nowhere near the level you'd need to be competitive at a Fortune 100 turbine flight department, or at Netjets, or at any other operator aside from "Ed's Car Parts and Airplane Charter." If you'd spent any real time in this industry you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm just saying. Be careful what you wish for.
I would be all for that, even if I was the last pilot on the Skywest seniority list. Bring it on! But I suspect that I'm in the minority IF your scenario were to be true, which I don't agree with on multiple levels.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
