"Everything about Scabs!!"
10-15-2017, 01:29 PM
#2
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Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by JoePatroni
It wasn't 9/11 that precipitated the merger with ALPA movement, it was the "almost" merger with Delta that got the wheels turning. The sentiment at the time was, it looked like there was going to be mergers on the horizon and it would be much better to be an ALPA carrier than a non-ALPA carrier when they happened. The rest of that post is factual as I remember it.
Originally Posted by baseball
1. ALPA came crawling to the IACP begging for certification as the CAL bargaining unit. IACP was content to be independent.
Joe, giving your post above, how can BB’s post be factually correct. There is far more shinola than fact.
10-15-2017, 01:31 PM
#3
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Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 1,825
Originally Posted by JoePatroni
It wasn't 9/11 that precipitated the merger with ALPA movement, it was the "almost" merger with Delta that got the wheels turning. The sentiment at the time was, it looked like there was going to be mergers on the horizon and it would be much better to be an ALPA carrier than a non-ALPA carrier when they happened. The rest of that post is factual as I remember it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baseball
1. ALPA came crawling to the IACP begging for certification as the CAL bargaining unit. IACP was content to be independent.
ALPA was on the original union ballot along with the IACP, the scabs wanted no part of ALPA and the IACP won by a large margin. I, personally, wouldn't say "ALPA came crawling" but there was definitely a lot of interest on both sides. I flew a lot with Pat Burke, IACP president who completed the merger with ALPA, when he came back to the line and am reasonably certain both sides wanted the deal......maybe for different reasons.
It wasn't 9/11 that precipitated the merger with ALPA movement, it was the "almost" merger with Delta that got the wheels turning. The sentiment at the time was, it looked like there was going to be mergers on the horizon and it would be much better to be an ALPA carrier than a non-ALPA carrier when they happened. The rest of that post is factual as I remember it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baseball
1. ALPA came crawling to the IACP begging for certification as the CAL bargaining unit. IACP was content to be independent.
Originally Posted by AllenAllert
Joe, giving your post above, how can BB’s post be factually correct. There is far more shinola than fact.
10-16-2017, 09:16 AM
#4
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by baseball
I was incorrect about the date. Getting old.
However, everything is factually correct about ALPA wanting IACP. But, if you read between the lines, ALPA wanted more than IACP. It wanted the CAL pilot group back under the fold. There was really no opportunity to do this after the 83 strike that broke ALPA. I don't see how ALPA could have done it until the IACP was formed.
One thing a union needs to form is union organizers working on the inside. The IACP leadership (original plus second cadre) worked tirelessly to build unity and cohesion amongst the pilot group to get not one, but two contracts. After IACP proved it could be effective, I think that got ALPA's attention that there were grass roots organizers and unionists on property that a push to bring CAL pilots back to ALPA could be done with minimal cost to ALPA. Since IACP was amassing a considerable war chest for what we predicted would be a huge contract battle for contract '02, ALPA looked at the dollars and cents of it and decided it was a wise financial decision.
There were only a handful of IACP leaders that looked favorably upon the ALPA agenda and thought it a good idea to pursue. It was the younger, what I call, second cadre of IACP leadership and the current and former Express pilots that thought ALPA would be effective and a good fit.
The Scabs were indeed promised "forgiveness" as a way to buy their votes. The same folks who were super active in IACP were still super active in the new CAL-MEC/ALPA after the merger of the two bargaining units.
However, everything is factually correct about ALPA wanting IACP. But, if you read between the lines, ALPA wanted more than IACP. It wanted the CAL pilot group back under the fold. There was really no opportunity to do this after the 83 strike that broke ALPA. I don't see how ALPA could have done it until the IACP was formed.
One thing a union needs to form is union organizers working on the inside. The IACP leadership (original plus second cadre) worked tirelessly to build unity and cohesion amongst the pilot group to get not one, but two contracts. After IACP proved it could be effective, I think that got ALPA's attention that there were grass roots organizers and unionists on property that a push to bring CAL pilots back to ALPA could be done with minimal cost to ALPA. Since IACP was amassing a considerable war chest for what we predicted would be a huge contract battle for contract '02, ALPA looked at the dollars and cents of it and decided it was a wise financial decision.
There were only a handful of IACP leaders that looked favorably upon the ALPA agenda and thought it a good idea to pursue. It was the younger, what I call, second cadre of IACP leadership and the current and former Express pilots that thought ALPA would be effective and a good fit.
The Scabs were indeed promised "forgiveness" as a way to buy their votes. The same folks who were super active in IACP were still super active in the new CAL-MEC/ALPA after the merger of the two bargaining units.
Why do you think JP continued to work with JS undermining UAL ALPA during integration. The combined unions spent all negotiating capital correcting inadequacy in the CAL contract and JP self promotion. The closes any union at CAL, post 83, came to being a real Union was in name only.
This continue well past integration when the IAH LEC Rep went to management to negotiate a special seniority carve out for CAL guys in IAH contrary to contract provisions - he was shot down. He, BS is a standup guy that unfortunately got schooled in the CAL form of unionism and didn’t catch the changes that were happening to bring CAL through UAL to the mainstream.
Last edited by AllenAllert; 10-16-2017 at 09:28 AM.
10-16-2017, 10:36 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Retired
Posts: 230
The constant bickering about scabs is infantile!
Of the remaining major airlines that morphed into the big four of today: Delta, American, Southwest and United; only United had scabs in the lineage of both predecessors.
The argument of which was worse depends largely on where you came from. United guys claim that Continental had more scabs, and the Continental guys retort 'not if you count the scab-wannabe 570'. United guys claim that Continental ALPA was more friendly to management, and the response from Continental guys is 'at least we didn't give away our retirement, our scope and furlough thousands'.
I suspect the argument won't end till the last pre-merger guy retires.
But, the bottom line is that we have a successful, growing airline which likely wouldn't be the case if the merger never happened!
So, get over it already!
Of the remaining major airlines that morphed into the big four of today: Delta, American, Southwest and United; only United had scabs in the lineage of both predecessors.
The argument of which was worse depends largely on where you came from. United guys claim that Continental had more scabs, and the Continental guys retort 'not if you count the scab-wannabe 570'. United guys claim that Continental ALPA was more friendly to management, and the response from Continental guys is 'at least we didn't give away our retirement, our scope and furlough thousands'.
I suspect the argument won't end till the last pre-merger guy retires.
But, the bottom line is that we have a successful, growing airline which likely wouldn't be the case if the merger never happened!
So, get over it already!
10-16-2017, 10:41 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Originally Posted by AllenAllert
You keep repeating the CAL Unionism according to BB. You fail to see the big picture. Why do you think ALPA National installed Prater as head of the organization. - Hint: even though CAL was allowed back into ALPA they continued to act as if it was 83’ with management and scabs controlling the union. Over a lot of heartburn, National installed Prater as president to hopefully straighten it out. He didn’t, instead, he choose to promote a campaign for SCAB acceptance.
Why do you think JP continued to work with JS undermining UAL ALPA during integration. The combined unions spent all negotiating capital correcting inadequacy in the CAL contract and JP self promotion. The closes any union at CAL, post 83, came to being a real Union was in name only.
This continue well past integration when the IAH LEC Rep went to management to negotiate a special seniority carve out for CAL guys in IAH contrary to contract provisions - he was shot down. He, BS is a standup guy that unfortunately got schooled in the CAL form of unionism and didn’t catch the changes that were happening to bring CAL through UAL to the mainstream.
Why do you think JP continued to work with JS undermining UAL ALPA during integration. The combined unions spent all negotiating capital correcting inadequacy in the CAL contract and JP self promotion. The closes any union at CAL, post 83, came to being a real Union was in name only.
This continue well past integration when the IAH LEC Rep went to management to negotiate a special seniority carve out for CAL guys in IAH contrary to contract provisions - he was shot down. He, BS is a standup guy that unfortunately got schooled in the CAL form of unionism and didn’t catch the changes that were happening to bring CAL through UAL to the mainstream.
I disagree with your comment "the closes any union at CAL....etc, was in name only." IACP was a positive step toward teaching the youngest new hires about unionism and returning a bargaining unit to the property. Please share with me your experiences with IACP, both internal as a member in good standing, and external as a bystander.
You fail to consider the obvious. Scabs and Lorenzo broke ALPA. After 1983 there was zero union at Continental. Why did the pilots look (in the early 1990's look to form a union)? Answer: Management was unchecked.
There is an old adage...You get as much union as you deserve. CAL Management (Captain Debbie McCoy) ruled with an iron fist. She rose to power and ran Flight Operations unchecked by anyone. The "ops group" was a small group of hand-picked cool aid drinkers, mostly scabs that advised Flight Ops and implemented the one-sided PEP. The pilot employment policy. Something had to give. The answer was IACP, or something....It could have been called Rose-Bud, it wouldn't have mattered.
Yes, there were some Ops Group people involved in IACP. Why? Because they got cross with Flight Ops. There were some Scabs involved in IACP. Why? Because of their domicile. Why did Cleveland send a scab as an ALPA rep? Why did Guam? Why did the Flight Instructors? Because the birds of a feather tend to flock together. They vote their base. Why do the liberal black voters in New Orleans keep electing liberal black Mayors? Because people keep supporting people whom they can identify with. I (or you for that matter) may not agree with that, but Identity politics is a reality at the local and national levels of politics and that includes National labor unions with local representation.
You use the term "CAL form of UNIONISM" in a negative light in your posts. It is an insult to all of those who started the IACP, served in IACP, and those that brought in ALPA, and served in ALPA. I am offended. However, that is your right to do so.
Unionism............Get this. It's something you learn. How many mentors were on hand to teach this when the scabs came to power? How many were available to teach the new hires when ALPA was run off the CAL property by Lorenzo. If you want unionism... Get this, don't get beat, don't get run off the property. I would much rather be talking about how ALPA was successful in running off Lorenzo and preventing the 1983 strike than I am at talking about all the super scabs that no one defends.
Unionism is a maturation of sorts. Your view and experiences in and around unions mold your knowledge of and opinions of unions. Therefore your concept of what it takes to improve and maintain solidarity on core issues changes with your knowledge of how unions work and what it takes to run a bureaucracy built on stability.
IACP was different from ALPA in one way that I can think of. Rapid Change. ALPA is like a giant Aircraft Carrier. It is built for stability in rough seas and it takes along time to make a U turn. IACP was nimble, cost effective, and got quick results. Smaller bureaucracy and tighter budget I expect. It wasn't better or worse, just built differently based on the C&BL and policy manual. It worked for the size of pilot group CAL was and it was certainly better than no union at all.
10-16-2017, 10:59 AM
#7
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
There were allot of good people that I believe were fantastic at bringing in IACP as well as helping to negotiate and implement our first two contacts. Rene Menjares, Bill Borelli, Pat Burke, and John Prater are people like anyone else. They all did good work in bringing in a union at CAL to fill the void and raise the bar for the CAL pilots. Those folks had their flaws, but, I think their hearts were in the right place.
On agenda issues, we didn't always agree, but that's why you vote and that's the process.
If IACP would have stayed on CAL property, I think it would have continued to evolve, mature, and yes improve.
It's just a chapter in the great big book of airlines of the past. It really doesn't matter in terms of where we are going. It may help describe how we got here, but it certainly doesn't pre-determine our destination as a pilot group.
is it helpful to discuss the past? Sure, from an educational stand point. But except for those reasons I just don't think it's very productive.
If you want to insult the former CAL pilots who participated in and who were members in good standing of the IACP, that's your right to do so Allen Alert. I am just glad we got a union on property and it helped represent and defend the CAL pilots when necessary. It was time and money well spent.
On agenda issues, we didn't always agree, but that's why you vote and that's the process.
If IACP would have stayed on CAL property, I think it would have continued to evolve, mature, and yes improve.
It's just a chapter in the great big book of airlines of the past. It really doesn't matter in terms of where we are going. It may help describe how we got here, but it certainly doesn't pre-determine our destination as a pilot group.
is it helpful to discuss the past? Sure, from an educational stand point. But except for those reasons I just don't think it's very productive.
If you want to insult the former CAL pilots who participated in and who were members in good standing of the IACP, that's your right to do so Allen Alert. I am just glad we got a union on property and it helped represent and defend the CAL pilots when necessary. It was time and money well spent.
10-16-2017, 06:18 PM
#8
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Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,158
Originally Posted by tailwheel48
The constant bickering about scabs is infantile!
Of the remaining major airlines that morphed into the big four of today: Delta, American, Southwest and United; only United had scabs in the lineage of both predecessors.
The argument of which was worse depends largely on where you came from. United guys claim that Continental had more scabs, and the Continental guys retort 'not if you count the scab-wannabe 570'. United guys claim that Continental ALPA was more friendly to management, and the response from Continental guys is 'at least we didn't give away our retirement, our scope and furlough thousands'.
I suspect the argument won't end till the last pre-merger guy retires.
But, the bottom line is that we have a successful, growing airline which likely wouldn't be the case if the merger never happened!
So, get over it already!
Of the remaining major airlines that morphed into the big four of today: Delta, American, Southwest and United; only United had scabs in the lineage of both predecessors.
The argument of which was worse depends largely on where you came from. United guys claim that Continental had more scabs, and the Continental guys retort 'not if you count the scab-wannabe 570'. United guys claim that Continental ALPA was more friendly to management, and the response from Continental guys is 'at least we didn't give away our retirement, our scope and furlough thousands'.
I suspect the argument won't end till the last pre-merger guy retires.
But, the bottom line is that we have a successful, growing airline which likely wouldn't be the case if the merger never happened!
So, get over it already!
Doesn't really matter where the scab came from, they are still a scab. Did I say this already, they will always be a scab.
10-16-2017, 06:31 PM
#9
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
A scab is a scab is a scab, will always be a scab. I can tell you didn't personally have a scab try to take your job, livelihood, and steal your families house and, yes retirement.
Doesn't really matter where the scab came from, they are still a scab. Did I say this already, they will always be a scab.
Doesn't really matter where the scab came from, they are still a scab. Did I say this already, they will always be a scab.
agree totally with ya Dave
CAL's core foundation is built on scabs working en masse for Lorenzo
the MODs of this site seem a bit scab-friendly so here goes another edit and restriction for me
10-17-2017, 03:51 AM
#10
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Originally Posted by buscappy
the MODs of this site seem a bit scab-friendly so here goes another edit and restriction for me
YGBSM.
Scabs suck. I don't like them or what they did.
I also am tired of thread-hijackings by the same players, arguing ad infinitum about the same points.
Here's the immutable truth:
Scabs suck.
It sucks that they have a history on both sides.
It sucks that we can't make them go away immediately.
You can't label EVERY pilot as a scab.
They ARE slowly going away and dying. But not fast enough.
Jack London's message is immortalized and vindicated.
The end.
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