Airline Pilot Central Forums - Rumor: UA looking to add 60 RJs

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- - Rumor: UA looking to add 60 RJs (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/109007-rumor-ua-looking-add-60-rjs.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecam (Post 2497511)

I was there too.

What's missing here is the quid pro quo. In 2000, DALPA laughed the ASA and CMR MECs off the floor of the BOD for suggesting a merger should take place. Then back door discussions within ALPA about merging ASA/CMR, then stapling to the bottom of DAL ensued. Talks broke down when senior folks got wind of it and demanded integration. DALPA told the MECs to pound sand and walked away. Did you know that ASA and CMR had a handshake MOU for a DOH integration of the two seniority lists? Fact. This was a prerequisite of the deal.

Suddenly, the world fell apart and Delta Air Lines furloughed. Now DALPA wanted something! The idea was to staple the RJ pilots and use us as cannon fodder to protect mainline. CMR told DALPA to pound sand, we would only take an integration at that point, for obvious reasons. ASA was along for the ride. They were just happy to be there. DALPA asked (demanded) that ASA and CMR hire DAL furloughees, not requiring resignation. The ASA MEC went to their shell management (controlled by DAL) and management said they would do it; they needed pilots in the seats. We went to CMR shell management (controlled by DAL) and they said no way, they didn't want to spend money training people who wouldn't be around long. Then CMR management (controlled by DAL) told us if we wanted to NEGOTIATE and give something up to get DAL furloughees on property, they were willing to meet. Well, asking us to give concessions to get DAL furloughees on property as newhires, while ASA went along willingly was unreasonable, but management would not relent. So we went to DALPA with a counterproposal. Scope relief for the concessions management was requesting, and hiring the furloughs. DALPA lost their minds and spun the whole thing into a sob story about those mean Comair pilots screwing their furloughees. As these things usually go, the misinformation spread like wild fire through the crew lounges and web boards, but only a handful of people knew the real inside story. By the time the truth came out, it was too late. The well was already poisoned, and sadly, is still poisoned to this day. And the real victims are the CMR line pilots who had no say in the decision making, just did their jobs and went home, but endured a decade of abuse in jumpseats and were denied jobs at DAL (and even other airlines) due to the toxic attitude attached to Comair.

So Sailingfun, if you were really there at the table, you know this. But I expect in reality, you were just one of the bigmouths on the ALPA web boards receiving and spreading crap. For you to hold up a lack of successful recalls as a showpiece that the rank and file supported the MEC only further shows you know nothing about ALPA's CBL and the MEC PPMs. Local recalls are intentionally difficult to orchestrate, (despite the soap opera constantly going on within DALPA) and we all thought the MEC was towing a fine line as best they could. We didn't know the intricate details at the time, but nobody thought concessions were a good idea AFTER WE HAD JUST SPENT 89 DAYS ON STRIKE 2 YEARS EARLIER (btw, SF, let me know when you get your battle star). So spare me the sanctimonious lectures from your bully pulpit, sport. I was there, and you're full of crap.

That’s hilarious.... a furloughed DAL pilot is forbidden from joining the bottom of CMR’s list and feeding his/her family during a period of exponential growth of rj’s without resigning from Delta and you see the employed CMR pilot who is experiencing that growth as the “real victim” here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by intrepidcv11 (Post 2497683)

So basically u demanded large RJ scope relief in order to hire furloughed Delta Pilots when our profession was at one of our lowest points? So as a Union member you proactively supported a Gutter B scale wage for all small narrowbody flying in the US? Thankfully DAL ALPA slaughtered you and the RJDC guys got what they deserved based on quid pro quo of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by full of luv (Post 2497996)

Yes, these embody the ridiculous spin and rhetoric we're talking about here. Just hate on. So either you're too stupid to draw the picture in your head, or you just can't let the truth cloud your hate.

Let me try this one last time. "We" didn't hold the DAL furloughees hostage. DAL management did, via their mouthpiece at Comair. THEY told us the only way THEY would agree to hire the furloughees is if WE take concessions. So we simply passed this demand along to DALPA. As in "since we have to give something up for you, you should give something up for us". It's easy to look back at this as a bad decision, but at the time, it seemed perfectly reasonable. In truth, we owed the DAL pilots nothing more than the UAL pilots, the AA pilots, or any other independent pilot group did. And I didn't see any of them offering concessions to hire the DAL pilots either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecam (Post 2498025)

Actually none of them were hiring during the RJ explosion, only the regionals.
The ONLY regional that was massively hiring but required a Delta pilot to submit his resignation letter to start was COMAIR.
You stated that Delta owned both ASA and CMR's mgmt, then why the difference if not for the CMR MEC's demands.

I don't hate anyone over it, but I certainly won't forget either when it effected many of my friends just trying to stay employed somewhere as the mainlines were parking planes and the RJ's were quickly expanding.

It really just rubs the wrong way when revisionists try to cloud the actions of the CMR MEC, despite the memos, despite the fact that other supposedly puppeted RJ mgmt's didn't seem to take the same approach, just CMR.

Happy New Year and I hope that Lawson, and every other CMR employee eventually found their spot in this industry, able to work for a living.
I thank the aviation gods every year that the RJDC wasn't successful in breaking down mainline scope further and get 737's and 320's placed at CMR and other regionals or this industry would be a much less desirable endstate for many.

Should this be on the Delta forum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by full of luv (Post 2498071)

Management buys planes, parks planes, hires, and furloughs. Pilots fly planes we are told to fly.

The fact that over a decade later, you still insist on blaming a pilot group shows you just need a scapegoat. Blame your beloved management over on Virginia Avenue who would throw you away in a heartbeat if it was profitable. You need to stop looking back at RJs and start worrying about INTERNATIONAL CODESHARE. That's your real boogey man. It's going to make the shift to flying RJs look like nothing when your transoceanic routes are replaced by pilots making half what you make on the same equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecam (Post 2498859)

management buys planes, parks planes, hires, and furloughs. Pilots fly planes we are told to fly.

The fact that over a decade later, you still insist on blaming a pilot group shows you just need a scapegoat. Blame your beloved management over on virginia avenue who would throw you away in a heartbeat if it was profitable. You need to stop looking back at rjs and start worrying about international codeshare. That's your real boogey man. It's going to make the shift to flying rjs look like nothing when your transoceanic routes are replaced by pilots making half what you make on the same equipment.

ding ding ding!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Nelson (Post 2498088)

Should this be on the Delta forum?

Better question ... should this be in the Majors forums?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecam (Post 2497511)

The letter direct from the Comair MEC speaks loudly and quite clearly and refutes much of what you post. The RJDC publications pour fuel on the fire. The simple fact was that the Comair MEC demanded a integration based on ALPA merger policy and stated they would be asking for DOH.

TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman DATEecember 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier. We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.
Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLA

[QUOTE=sailingfun;2499381
The simple fact was that the Comair MEC demanded a integration based on ALPA merger policy and stated they would be asking for DOH.

“TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman DATEecember 16, 2002...

Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.” [/QUOTE]

The very letter from the CMR MEC Chairman you insist on reprinting contradicts your statement.

CMR pilots simply wanted to be treated as ALPA represented pilots. We struck Delta for 89 days in order to be treated fairly. Why is it unfathomable to you we asked the same of OUR union?

All of us, DAL, CMR, ASA, could’ve made steps to end the outsourcing, B-listing, scope-choking, RJ problem...whatever you want to call it 15 years ago. Unfortunately we couldn’t stop fighting with each other to accomplish our goals.

Sad.

As a side note; I largely attribute getting an interview (and hired) with United because I was able to check the box “are you currently furloughed from an ALPA carrier” on the application. I thank ALPA, United, and the powers-that-be to make that box available. I’m happier here than I ever could’ve imagined.

(Putting down the kool-aid now)

Another previous poster suggested this thread be moved to another forum. I agree. Or better yet, just dropped. Opinions are obviously well entrenched and this is all water-under-the-bridge that isn’t worth arguing about anymore. This is the last post I’m making under a United thread about this subject. Good night and good luck...😉

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG1000 (Post 2499495)

The very letter from the CMR MEC Chairman you insist on reprinting contradicts your statement.

CMR pilots simply wanted to be treated as ALPA represented pilots. We struck Delta for 89 days in order to be treated fairly. Why is it unfathomable to you we asked the same of OUR union?

All of us, DAL, CMR, ASA, could’ve made steps to end the outsourcing, B-listing, scope-choking, RJ problem...whatever you want to call it 15 years ago. Unfortunately we couldn’t stop fighting with each other to accomplish our goals.

Sad.

As a side note; I largely attribute getting an interview (and hired) with United because I was able to check the box “are you currently furloughed from an ALPA carrier” on the application. I thank ALPA, United, and the powers-that-be to make that box available. I’m happier here than I ever could’ve imagined.

(Putting down the kool-aid now)

Another previous poster suggested this thread be moved to another forum. I agree. Or better yet, just dropped. Opinions are obviously well entrenched and this is all water-under-the-bridge that isn’t worth arguing about anymore. This is the last post I’m making under a United thread about this subject. Good night and good luck...😉

I agree, please address your UAL ALPA immediately with the news that you want them to reach out to MESA, Air Wisconsin, Republic (and whoever makes up the rest of UAL express/connection) to offer them immediate integration to the UAL seniority list and put an
"end to the outsourcing, B-listing, scope-choking, RJ problem...whatever you want to call it" that you were all for before you came to the UAL list.