“We need to pass it to find out what’s in it”

 

so you’re saying it’s the company not agreeing to anything?
I have heard that it’s certain Union reps who are being heavily lobbied to NOT let any sort of agreement see the light of day....for fear that it might actually be supported.
What you are hearing isn’t the same as what I’m hearing.
Honestly.....I don’t have any faith in any sort of agreement actually passing a vote.....but suppressing it beforehand is offensive to me.

 

If the deal is bad it is the Union's job to walk away from the table. It is not their job to present all offers and let mob rule decide; we elect them to navigate the process with our input, not to just pass all company proposals our way. I'm offended when we're given something to vote on with no recommendation from the union! That's just passing the buck, what did I elect you for?

How wise is it for the Union to present bad offers for us to vote on? We all point fingers, fight, and blame ALPA or groups within ourselves. It's a guaranteed management win, ALPA lose whichever way the vote goes.

 

I’m just saying that there are two sides to this coin. I’m sure that the union is being lobbied by the majority of pilots to hold the line, and I’m sure that the company is trying to use this to lower a business cost by making lowball offers. I’ve contacted my reps with my view, as I’m sure that you have also. Having been down this road before, I’m a definite no for concessions to the contract, but I’d give honest consideration to some type of association-based plan. Historically the company has a way of turning temporary concessions into the new normal, and I’m not willing to go down that road again. Negotiating from the basis of a weakened contract just means that we blow all of our negotiating capital trying to get back to where we started. There is nothing good about this. We are all worse off because of this, some much worse. I’m sorry that you got the letter. I remember the feeling that I had looking at my wife and young kids when I got mine, and it’s awful, but the needed cuts are extreme and I don’t think that much can be done to do much about it. The one saving grace that we have a training jam at TK. I hope that we get a vaccine this fall, I hope that enough people come back to significantly reduce the furloughs, and I hope that it happens before we get through the 2850, much less the full (for now) 3900.

 

☝️This is exactly how the system works.

 

I don’t disagree.
Who decides what “bad” is?
The answer seems pretty obvious as we get further into this thing.

I don’t want just ANY company proposal to be passed to us. I want the BEST that the NC can accomplish. If their best isn’t good enough, it should fail the ratification process. If you’re afraid that you might be in the minority when it comes to voting, what makes you think you’re still correct in suppressing that?

Also....when it comes to being called a “socialist”, we have plenty of guys here who want to hurry up and furlough the bottom 1750 BEFORE any CARES extension, so they can insulate from BK a little longer. That can only be described as SELECTIVE socialism.

 

We elect representatives to protect our collective interest, not one section of the seniority list. The union uses data from PDR’s, and more importantly, from direct contact with our representatives to determine what “bad” is. When you’re negotiating with the devil, his best case offer may not be something to even consider. If the BEST that the NC can come up with is complete garbage, it is their job to tell the company to pound sand and not subject the contract to the emotions of the mob. There is a reason that the founding fathers made the Constitution very difficult to amend. It was to protect the integrity of the Constitution (the contract in our case) from the passions of the mob and to allow cooler heads to prevail. We elect representatives for the same reason.

 

I'm really sorry for the position the bottom third finds themselves in. I'd be shocked to find a pilot who wishes another pilot to be furloughed. Kirby has said his ultimate goal is to achieve zero cash burn asap. Remember, pilots don't furlough pilots.

What we can't do is point fingers and rip this pilot group apart. It serves no purpose.

 

No. If the proposal sucks it shouldn't pass an MEC vote and therefore never reach MR. The MEC gave 'direction' to the NC and they should bring back an AIP that conforms to that 'direction'. If the NC can't reach a conforming agreement they'll update the MEC. If the MEC is doing their job they'll either amend their direction based on member feedback/resolutions or send them back to keep trying. The membership should never vote on an agreement that the MEC finds substandard.

 

Where are you hearing these things?
According to my rep we are not close to an AIP or MEC vote. Can you share details?