Reuters article talks additional COVID PSP...
02-13-2021 | 05:59 PM
#71
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Joined: Dec 2012
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\No, we are not in good shape. For money to have value a nation has to be productive. The disincentives for working this past year are cause for concern. Money in and of itself has no value, it is what people produce that is important, regardless of what economics teaches otherwise.
02-13-2021 | 06:45 PM
#73
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02-13-2021 | 07:05 PM
#75
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02-14-2021 | 02:13 PM
#76
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,725
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From: UAL retired
How about neither? But that’s a long discussion.
A couple reasons that I am not a fan of wealth as a form of government revenue.
1) Honesty - The government does not have an ideal track record for this trait. Don’t quote me on this, but I believe when the income tax was introduced, it was only intended for the richest Americans. Of course, this was not to be the final result and now everyone that has an income over $50K pays federal tax. This will be the case for the wealth tax eventually.
2)Wealth creation is good for the middle class. And those with the highest levels of wealth have done more for the middle class than any other income group. This reward for innovation has resulted in the largest middle class in the world. Compare the US population in 1880 to any other country. Germany and the US had roughly the same population at this time. Today, the US middle class population is 130 million. That is more than the entire population of Germany. Yes, there are real issues to be dealt with regarding the poor. But the wealthiest among us are the best financial managers and they have invested heavily in the US and it has created the healthiest middle class in the world. Why would we take money out of their hands and give it to politicians that have a tragic history of destroying wealth.
3)Giving the government another revenue stream does not hold them accountable for the poor capital allocation decisions they have made in the past. They simply do not steward finances well. They exceed their own budgets and have been reckless financially. Why should this kind of history be rewarded?
4) The federal government has come to be equated with a panacea for all issues. However, they consistently go outside the purview of their authority. General welfare, national defense, infrastructure that facilitates interstate commerce, justice, etc. is basically the extent of the responsibility. But they continue to not respect those limitations.
5) The message of the wealth tax is just bad optics. The federal government serves the people. The people don’t serve the government. The government does not let us have possessions. The possessions belong to us. A wealth tax conveys the image that wealth can just be allocated based upon government values. Not to mention that the wealthiest Americans money is tied up in the means of production. Transferring wealth from the highest net worth individuals to the government will inevitably lean to the means of production being minimized or transferred to the government. That is bad for the middle class.
A couple reasons that I am not a fan of wealth as a form of government revenue.
1) Honesty - The government does not have an ideal track record for this trait. Don’t quote me on this, but I believe when the income tax was introduced, it was only intended for the richest Americans. Of course, this was not to be the final result and now everyone that has an income over $50K pays federal tax. This will be the case for the wealth tax eventually.
2)Wealth creation is good for the middle class. And those with the highest levels of wealth have done more for the middle class than any other income group. This reward for innovation has resulted in the largest middle class in the world. Compare the US population in 1880 to any other country. Germany and the US had roughly the same population at this time. Today, the US middle class population is 130 million. That is more than the entire population of Germany. Yes, there are real issues to be dealt with regarding the poor. But the wealthiest among us are the best financial managers and they have invested heavily in the US and it has created the healthiest middle class in the world. Why would we take money out of their hands and give it to politicians that have a tragic history of destroying wealth.
3)Giving the government another revenue stream does not hold them accountable for the poor capital allocation decisions they have made in the past. They simply do not steward finances well. They exceed their own budgets and have been reckless financially. Why should this kind of history be rewarded?
4) The federal government has come to be equated with a panacea for all issues. However, they consistently go outside the purview of their authority. General welfare, national defense, infrastructure that facilitates interstate commerce, justice, etc. is basically the extent of the responsibility. But they continue to not respect those limitations.
5) The message of the wealth tax is just bad optics. The federal government serves the people. The people don’t serve the government. The government does not let us have possessions. The possessions belong to us. A wealth tax conveys the image that wealth can just be allocated based upon government values. Not to mention that the wealthiest Americans money is tied up in the means of production. Transferring wealth from the highest net worth individuals to the government will inevitably lean to the means of production being minimized or transferred to the government. That is bad for the middle class.
Honestly, I am shocked this thread has not been moved or shut down as it has strayed far from the mark.
Let me offer my response though as l think you are a thinking man and may be interested.
1) I agree government has a certain inherent dishonesty, but I think what you are more implying is that the tax would increase over time. At this point in human history, how much governments take and/or direct of a nations product is a defining issue though few if any understand this. However, this point does not speak to whether, as a society, it is better to tax wealth or labor.
2) Your implication is that taxation of wealth will reduce the desire to create wealth. I would ask you to find one example of this in the history of humanity. A person buying a Picasso and staring at it all day may reconsider what they are doing if they know they must pay for that privilege of doing nothing, but a person starting a company and creating wealth is not likely to stop creating wealth if they know they have to pay taxes.
3)I did not say "another" revenue stream. I asked is it better to tax labor or wealth. My assumption was one or the other. Not both.
4) I do not disagree with this sentiment, but again it does not answer the question of which is better to tax from the standpoint of society.
5) I wholeheartedly agree a wealth tax has bad optics, but I believe this is because of incorrect attitudes towards wealth. Here is the crux at which point you will say "hah ha". I am a socialist at heart. Let me explain. First, I do not believe anyone "owns" anything. Society has set up rules that allow certain individuals to acquire more than others, and society has found that by creating a set of rules that allow some to win more than others while maintaining order then the whole of society benefits. This is the Contract that the great thinkers of the Enlightenment came up with. No where in that Contract does Society bequeath in perpetuity the wealth an individual creates. If that were true we might as well go back to having King's and a noble class that is permanently protected by birth right.
I recommend you read my brother-in-laws book. He does an excellent job of proving that a wealth tax would be better for our nation than the labor tax has been.
02-15-2021 | 06:10 AM
#77
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 38
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From: right
For more reading see Henry George, Progress and Poverty.
02-15-2021 | 06:36 AM
#78
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 92
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From: Banned
