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-   -   TA2 (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/138342-ta2.html)

fadec 07-02-2022 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by Chowdah (Post 3453857)
Money is one thing to negotiate, but bodies are another. This a finite resource that the company cannot negotiate away. If they do, it would have as many negative consequences for us (long term) as for them. Money on the other hand (retirement, LTD, PPU rates, hourly, vacation, sick bank, etc) is essentially infinite from our standpoint.

Okay, market solutions. Reserves get 15 days off. Line-holders get 15 days off. Allow the company to put a premium on extra days at bid time. Cost variability isn't bad if it's associated with schedule variability.

bottoms up 07-02-2022 07:41 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Don’t forget This was crafted this back in 2018/2019 pre Covid. Look at the list of Company wants…They darn well complied with most things the company wanted. For pennies! We were sold out. The ones sitting up in the MEC and NC have not and do not have our best interests.

This was the “Right Contract for the Right Time”? Something that was asked for pre Covid, pre inflation. Back when everything was “GME to the moon and NFTs” the company wanted this. It wasn’t because of Covid or the doom & gloom economy. No it was a sell out from the top and the must resign or be recalled!

Andy 07-02-2022 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by Chowdah (Post 3453857)
Money is one thing to negotiate, but bodies are another. This a finite resource that the company cannot negotiate away. If they do, it would have as many negative consequences for us (long term) as for them. Money on the other hand (retirement, LTD, PPU rates, hourly, vacation, sick bank, etc) is essentially infinite from our standpoint.

Pay more and they'll get more bodies.
Overwork people and decrease QOL and they'll get less bodies.
If there aren't enough bodies to fully staff the flights then it's time to cut back on flights and charge more money to the customers. Given the amount of passenger traffic this summer, it's clear that ticket prices are too low.

But these aren't my problems to solve. FUPM.

awax 07-02-2022 08:24 PM


Originally Posted by Mudge (Post 3453782)
What's the best way to message our counter?

That’s hilarious.

With all the teeth clinching and recall talk, it’ll be a year before we have a functional MEC, then, we’ll see how willing the company is to negotiate.

If we’re even close before 2024 it’ll be a miracle. Don’t worry about sending anything to the union, I think they know to poll us now.

Excargodog 07-02-2022 09:43 PM


Originally Posted by StewBlu (Post 3453453)
I don’t disagree entirely that some of these folks are out of touch. However, we have to be careful about losing the institutional knowledge that they have as a consequence of being in their roles for as long as they have.

If this TA is indicative of the value of that “institutional knowledge” it would seem like little loss to do without both it and them.

Chowdah 07-03-2022 03:29 AM


Originally Posted by Andy (Post 3453890)
Pay more and they'll get more bodies.
Overwork people and decrease QOL and they'll get less bodies.
If there aren't enough bodies to fully staff the flights then it's time to cut back on flights and charge more money to the customers. Given the amount of passenger traffic this summer, it's clear that ticket prices are too low.

But these aren't my problems to solve. FUPM.

Obviously there is a benefit to being hard nosed and going for the kill… But I’m sure you could imagine that most of us would understand if we demanded four-day trips with late shows, early releases, worth 25 hours that have long layovers… That’s probably not going to happen, albeit for the top 10%. In other words, somethings Gotta give in that equation

In the same way if we are enjoying a growing, profitable airline that is expanding its footprint across the world and has growth opportunity for the pilots as well as plenty of premium pay… is it gonna be hard to keep having the leverage we have if pilot supply was keeping up with demand. The reason we are here at this inflection point, is because there are not enough bodies in the system. That will likely change in the next 10 years, but I would take Delta and their morale has a great learning lesson. They have a good contract, make a lot of money, but are a stagnant airline that is not growing, and puts a higher premium on their margins, then their marketshare.

If you look at our ticket prices right now, I don’t think the yield and generating money is an issue. But if we really want to restrict their ability to grow (through lower reserve and line pilot utilization), which of course is an option, I think that may have some negative effects for us as well. I don’t know the right answer, but I would be careful just throwing out road-blocks to the company, and saying it’s not our problem. “Hurdles” are one thing, such as where they allocate their profits and directing more of it to our pockets, but “roadblocks” that are actual preventative measures on growth, are another

cal73 07-03-2022 04:17 AM

The CRJ550 scope provision was insulting. That's an airplane the company cooked up to get around our EXISTING scope clause. It has issues and they want UAL pilots to pay for the fix? Good lord that's rich. GTFO!! I was "HELL NO" when I read that alone.

Aquaticus 07-03-2022 04:35 AM


Originally Posted by Finessed (Post 3453779)
You call this a lowball offer? What AA management just did was a lowball offer to kick off negotiations. Scottie just sent a big FU package to your door with a “Read It And Weep” TA inside. Yeah you have two big problems Joe, your representation sucks but so does your management.

The only way to respond to this and gain more leverage is a big turnout 90% or better and a 90% or better NO. We will show Kirby we can be unified. By recalling the pro-management officers and replacing with more militant, fresh people... the next TA is going to be under a lot more scrutiny to get to member ratification.

If we limp across the line with 60/40 NO we will have shown that we can be bought. It is important that we collectively vote thos down.

StewBlu 07-03-2022 05:57 AM


Originally Posted by bottoms up (Post 3453881)
Don’t forget This was crafted this back in 2018/2019 pre Covid. Look at the list of Company wants…They darn well complied with most things the company wanted. For pennies! We were sold out. The ones sitting up in the MEC and NC have not and do not have our best interests.

This was the “Right Contract for the Right Time”? Something that was asked for pre Covid, pre inflation. Back when everything was “GME to the moon and NFTs” the company wanted this. It wasn’t because of Covid or the doom & gloom economy. No it was a sell out from the top and the must resign or be recalled!

What’s the history with the attached document? Did it leak from MGMT?

Otterbox 07-03-2022 06:02 AM


Originally Posted by Mudge (Post 3453782)
What's the best way to message our counter? Where/when do we ask the union for polling as they relate to TA2 changes and that are relevant to today's line flying and benefits? They were clearly out of touch with our side. While I want to help management streamline and remedy shortcomings, there appears to be a severe shortcoming in what we'd expect in return. We need unified messaging of what is acceptable.

Focus energy on killing the current TA with no votes first. Voting is still open.


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