NC Update?
 

Monday came and went. NC promised update every Monday till we get a contract.

Frustration grows on the line.

As infoless as those negotiationing notes started out as, they were appreciated. It’s starting to seem like things are deteriorating very quickly, I hope I’m wrong.

Actually giving them a pass for a few days as last week was both a MEC meeting week PLUS Passover and Easter. I thought yesterday was a Holiday but in keeping with the Woke, New, Democratic world- I’m probably wrong.

Expect they are meeting hard this week and maybe we get something today or tomorrow.

Motch

Really thanking the system for booting that snake DF out. Finally making headway.

Say more about this, please.

Pretty sure that he's referring to the NC Vice Chairman vacancy.

SK speaking today at 1245 at TK.

What are the odds he gets a standing ovation???

He should get either see blank stares or empty chairs.

Sadly, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Anyone who goes to that, please post what was said.

Union communication directly to attendees of these functions about that kind of behavior should be happening. Everyone should be turning their backs.

I am considering mediation is a good thing to get the contract done. -SK

The negotiating vc didn't resign after tumi, seeing all the people recalled after the tumi sales job and the delta ta... but now he decides to resign? The time to resign was almost a year ago.

Did he really mention mediation? If so, can you share what he said in a complete sentence?

From a friend:

Just got out of the Scott Kirby TK Q&A. The tone was clearly disapproval from the pilot group. Basically group he presented too was 60% NH, 20% instructors&pilots, 20% non pilot TK staff. The 20% instructors & pilots were the most vocal.

Kirby's take - company proposal is worth more than DL etc etc - said Mediation may be the next or only step.- only 40 pilots really took the upgrade (rest were SUPs or lateral) in the last vacancy. Said the CA vacancies may lead to growth problems. Contract only way he sees fixing it.- United is not largest in Pacific and Atlantic

ALPA Reps, Instructors & Pilots - pointed out company offer it’s not a 1:1 with DL in terms of QOL or total value - Denver FO rep spoke out, saying he’s personally at negotiations (unlike Kirby), company does not appear as willing to work for a good agreement as Kirby claims. (Kirby kinda back tracked on this, telling the pilot group to read ALPAs latest comm, and ask themselves if they want what’s on the table).

Instructors spoke out about how Kirby is losing morale, and trust from the pilot group (including the evaluators and PIs) as a whole as this contract drags out. It’s overdue.

From my perspective, there really was no other way to interpret it other than in this Q&A Kirby was on the spot. The pilot group was unified in their disappointment. It doesn’t appear we are very close on a deal.

This sounds like a productive show of disapproval from the pilot group. Bravo!

New routes coming soon
United is 39% bigger in the Atlantic, competitors are -2%.
We hope to get the deal done at the table but if we need to go another avenue (Mediation) we will.
The ask isn’t economical
United is stacking cash to build the runway longer to ensure furloughs are never a threat.
$5B in debt paid this year already. Lots more to do.
90 jets this year, 179 next. 1 787 every two weeks.
NO timeline given for UPA when asked directly
New bases in 2026/7 - His “Skunkworks” team is working on it.
767 replacement is the 787
757 replacement is the XLR
More contract talk - compared DALs vacation to our vacation. They get less days off per year, therefore they get paid more for those days vs. us.
The 79 out of 159 work/life rules need to be adjusted in order to be economical for UAL to stay competitive.
Less regional flying will mean more mainline gates at already congested hubs.
Very concerned with upgrades. Without upgrades we cannot grow. Leaning on the new contract for reprieve.

Smoke and mirrors

Again, the fact you typed this out “United is stacking cash to build the runway longer to ensure furloughs are never a threat” proves you’re a massive sucker.

“Stacking cash to help save furloughs”. I’ll tell you what, Scotty boy’s BS’ing has no bounds.

It's being played out in real-time

Kirby must not think we can multiply and add. In two years DAL vacation will top out at 37 days x 4:35 = 160:25 annual vacation hours. United tops out at 42 days x 3:15 = 136.5 annual hours.
Complete BS. The cost of the current United offer is well below Delta's contract and does anyone believe the cash is for furlough prevention? UFB.
If only Kirby was this stupid. The reason for the 100+ unfilled Captain slots is the work rules and reserve provisions are so substandard. Nothing like two year Captains and new-hire FOs operating 737NG & 737MAXs all over the northern hemisphere.I agree. Great job folks!

The update from the NC a couple of weeks ago was a breath of fresh air.

To make an informed decision I need to know what our Reps are asking.

Why the "cloak and dagger"? I am a United pilot but I knew Delta's opening details years ago.

Thats always the big question and I have never understood the secrecy. ALPA’s Economic team is very good at costing. If they say the companies offer is below Delta I would believe that. The question is how far below Delta is the offer? 1% or 10%? The next question is how far above Delta is your table position. That’s a very important number that never seems to get published. Keeping in mind that mediation will drive you to the Delta solution plus a % or two deciding to go that route is a tough choice for your negotiating committee given it adds substantial time to the process. Time is not your friend if you are looking at where your career earnings will end up.

In the United case you probably have more leverage than Delta because time is also not on managements side with your training situation. Time however works for management with the substantial sums saved delaying the contract. Full retro never happens in long delayed contracts. You get zero retro on work rules. Delta’s MEC preached that they would NEVER sign a contract without full retro and even wrote it into the union bylaws then caved on the issue for about 30 cents on the dollar.
Delta did have one thing going for them that you don’t at United. A less than smart CEO who went on national TV saying the Delta pilots would never be allowed to strike. The mediator took great offense to that statement. She controlled that issue not EB and threatened a near immediate release to self help if Delta management did not put an offer on the table that could close things out in a week. I doubt SK is as stupid as EB.

Very interesting post, thank you.

A brief comment on one item that I am lately reconsidering. There seems to be a consensus here and elsewhere on the issue of unfilled captain vacancies and training. I admit I agreed with said consensus up until someone pointed out that we have hundreds of surplus 737 captains in IAH, ORD, and DEN. We are staffed way more than what is needed to fly the hours we currently have. The company achieved this by offering captain vacancies in domiciles that were highly desired versus where the actual need lay. I have to believe this was done with intention on the part of the company to provide a buffer that gives them the supply of pilots, both CA and FO well into the future.

In other words, I'm not so sure there will be any pressure on the company to meet their pilot need for quite some time; not to mention that hiring seems to be continuing unabated regardless of negotiations stalling.

The company is feeling no pressure to provide an ILC any time soon. SK would welcome the mediation process and the time it would consume to finish that process.

Currently SK has all he need to run a profitable operation. TK is staffed, there is no longer a back log between sim and IOE, plenty of CAs to staff summer flying, and enough new hires coming off probation to fill the needed CA positions in the future.

If no one bid CA until we had am ILC we would be in great position, but FOMO is real and the pilots choosing to upgrade are providing enough CAs for the company to operate seamlessly,..

Unless SK is feeling particularly generous one day, we are in for a long mediation process to break even with DAL.

The union is telling him what the contract needs to have to actually fix his problem & he isn’t listening. If people are not upgrading under current book, does he really think a Delta approximate pay raise with no improvements to our crummy work rules is going to move the needle?

The upgrades aren’t enough to operate seamlessly. They’re taking massive growth deliveries and captain upgrades are barely keeping pace with retirements

Plus they can only herd so many FO’s into IAH. Having 25% of the base in training won’t work.

agreed. Maybe we should take the money and see what happens. I doubt that the “new” contract as it appears to still falling short on QOL issues will substantially motivate people to upgrade.

then SK has to come back and fix it with LOAs

**** that. I came from a class that's heading toward the end of probation, and there's only one willing to take a quick upgrade.

No. No we should not.

Guess the Yes voters are starting to come out!
No LOA’s. Industry Leading Contract (which doesn’t JUST include Pay)! Now!
No Contract… No United Next.
United Next will become Mediation Next
Mr. Kirby will become a Failed CEO

Motch

But there sure seems to be plenty of takers every 6 weeks that aren’t in your class.

There were only 42 takers and over 100 unfilled CA slots including a widebody and 14 CA downgrades to WB FO in the bid that closed two days ago.

Absolutely NOT!!

you yet again fail to mention the impact of a 99% strike vote. That’s what led Bastian to panic and step on his schwantz on the network morning show. That vote also made the mediator’s threat of release, if any, all the more credible.

the rest of your interpretation is pure fiction. I caution anyone from taking what this guy says as factual.

‘Congress will never let us go on strike. A strike vote means nothing today other than a formality with no consequences.

They aren't new hires. Throw out the SUPs, and there are only 11 13XXX-seniority pilots who are upgrading.

Congress not letting the railroads strike is a different order of magnitude from the economic impact of one airline striking.

True, customer book-always are prob more of a threat to mgmt in the short term after a strike vote. But the signal a successful strike vote sends to mgmt and the mediator is useful.

to say there are “no consequences” is simply not true. It is a leverage generator if done properly. You in management?

no…just a pessimist on all things related to this contract/ALPA/management/RLA/govt etc. Trust nobody with an agenda.

Unfilleds is a magic number thought up by CR. It’s doesn’t necessarily mean that we are short of what they need. In the last few bids, we have been better than netting 1 new NB CA/day after retirements and bidding off fleets. If that’s not keeping up with what is needed, I’d be surprised.