Airline Pilot Central Forums - Negotiating in Public

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Old UCAL CA (Post 1015359)

Taking it a step further to the present day, this industry is deregulated, global in nature and so fiercely competitive that there likely isn't a surviving company or management group that would sign up to base labor compensation that they considered uncompetitive relative to other industry companies. If "bankruptcy" wages are where the industry is, that's about where everybody will sit. Variable comp is a different matter.

A career CAL pilot has always earned just about BK wages. Sadly Contract 2002 puts you worse then the Red Book adjusted for inflation. Amazing that 57% were stupid enough to vote for it especially with no hint of snap back. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbia (Post 1015371)

If what you're saying is true, then how DID UAL pilots get their 2000 payrates?

They and the DAL pilots were the last pilot groups who were able to take advantage of the "momentum" that still existed in the industry 22 years after deregulation went into effect in 1978. Good for them, seriously. It was truly the "ballistic apogee." Being relatively large companies certainly helped as did dealing with management groups that thought life, business and the "internet bubble" were going to continue the same for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, the "boost" phase (ie, price supports) of regulation had ended 22 years earlier.

911, foreign military campaigns, oil uncertainty, fierce competition, the very late management recognition that they were truly on their own and a recent recession brought it all crashing to earth for everybody over the last 10 years.

I'm not saying it's good or bad...it just is...and one brushes the dust off and deals with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old UCAL CA (Post 1015463)

911, foreign military campaigns, oil uncertainty, fierce competition, the very late management recognition that they were truly on their own and a recent recession brought it all crashing to earth for everybody over the last 10 years.

I'm not saying it's good or bad...it just is...and one brushes the dust off and deals with it.

During those difficult years the company was hemorrhaging money, but today they have achieved a successful business model with capacity discipline and additional fees. Times have changed, again, for good or bad...compensation will change again as well.

Add to this the fact that regionals can't fill their new-hire requirements with the ATP/1500-hour rule & low pay, along with thousands of upcoming retirements at majors: you've got a market that allows pilots to choose companies to work for. Most companies are hiring now, and my guess is that every major airline & cargo company will hire in 2012. If airlines want to keep their pilots then compensation will need to follow, or else pilots will leave for the money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvis90 (Post 1015496)

Agreed. Things change...the industry cycles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old UCAL CA (Post 1015359)

A couple of things....

The MEC's still exist separately in their present form, but for practical purposes, contract negotiations were reset on the date of the merger announcement and we have been negotiating as a joint committee for a joint contract since...about one year...the last six months of that in mediation. Not too terribly long in the overall scheme of things. I truly do not know exactly what the committee is proposing except for generalities.

Neither side (management/joint committee) is able to convincingly or effectively cost a proposal or trade "meat" proposals routinely since flight and duty time are unknown quantities at present. It's my understanding the FAA is supposed to issue the final rule on or about the August/September timeframe. The pace should pick up about that time.

Secondly, your notion that profitability translates directly into base compensation is a popular notion that has rarely been realized in fact in the deregulated environment. Profitability certainly affects variable compensation (profit sharing, bonus, etc.) shares. However, base compensation is directly affected by a comparison to peer groups at similar companies and how the economy is doing.

Taking it a step further to the present day, this industry is deregulated, global in nature and so fiercely competitive that there likely isn't a surviving company or management group that would sign up to base labor compensation that they considered uncompetitive relative to other industry companies. If "bankruptcy" wages are where the industry is, that's about where everybody will sit unless a dynamic market factor changes. Variable comp is a different matter.

I have no inkling of how the deals will look at UAL or DAL when the time comes...or American for that matter. You can rest assured though, they are all watching each other.

Every airline pilot needs to hammer this through their skull right now:

The new regulations will come with a significant cost component. It is not the responsibility of the pilots to bear this cost of doing business. It therefore is not an impediment to negotiations regarding compensation rates. "Our" behavior as a group (not just at UCAL) is certainly giving managements across the industry the impression that we intend to bear this cost with them. Read the rule proposals -- we're going to bear plenty of costs in schedule building and commuting as it is.

PIPE

Exactly, thank you.
The changes affect all airlines and pilots. When we stop behaving as though it's our responsibility
to subsidize the airline's costs, those costs will be passed elsewhere ie. tickets.
The only reason they're not now, sadly, is that mgmt. sees us as easier targets than consumers are.
That has to change now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbia (Post 1015371)

If what you're saying is true, then how DID UAL pilots get their 2000 payrates?

We had a leader back then. Someone that was willing to push the company and someone that motivated the pilots to follow his lead. We have neither today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clrd2LndATL (Post 1013848)

http://www.unitednegotiations.com/em...y_10-27-10.pdf

Does the company really think anyone would agree to this...94 seat RJ's REALLY?!?!?!

The RJ issue was never about 70 seat jets. It was about moving the line forward to replace all DC-9 and B-737/500 flying by outsourcing it to lower cost operators thus allowing them to focus on international revenue and transcontinental marketshare. The 90 seat issue will one day give way to the 105 seat issue. Look for the line in the sand to move about every 7 years to allow mangement to focus on premium RASM's. Once you give in, it's just a moving date of destruction for the piloting profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UalHvy (Post 1015656)

We had a leader back then. Someone that was willing to push the company and someone that motivated the pilots to follow his lead. We have neither today.

BINGO!! The nail has been hit squarely on the head..